[Terrapreta] biochar and sugarcane growth (reply to AD Karve)

[Michael Bailes]

One of the biggest sugar millers ins Australia is at Bundaberg Queensland
(about 4hours north of Brisbane)
http://www.bundysugar.com.au/corporat/default.htm
A lot of sugar goes to make Bundaberg rum, an Australian Icon, a nice drop,
recently purchased by Lion Nathan (?) in the UK
(Is everybody buying everybody else these days?)

Bundaberg Mills also own their own engineering firm so would be obvious ones
to talk about pyrolysis.I don't know what they do with the bagasse- probably
burn it.

They used to burn cane before harvest (amazing fires to watch if you are
quick enough to drive to one) but nowadays a few farmers are selling the
green waste, in big bales, down south as  garden mulch. Just about every
nursery stocks it. I am surprised people are not using it instead of hay and
lucern now around $25 a bale !! (used to be $4 before drought)
I have used SC mulch and found it breaks down very quickly within 6-10
months. I think that is a bit too quick for mulch, but obviously some "wee
beasties" like it.

CSR is another very major player producing all sorts of stuff including
ethanol from sugarcane. We can now buy 10% ethanol at most service stations.
The government does not tax it quite as much as petrol ( petrol is 38c a
litre excise + 10% -of the final retail price- GST !!!!- a tax on a tax).
A bit insane when it costs a truck driver $1,200+ in diesel to drive from
one state capital city to another. It makes everything expensive
But we are told the present government are "good economic managers"

CSR is a publicly listed company into a range of products including building
materials. It burns its bagasse in its furnaces.
http://www.sugaraustralia.com.au/Industry.aspx?content=millingbusiness

Did you get my post on sugarcane and pH? 8 is far to high to grow cane well.
m


On 20/05/07, Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com> wrote:
>
>  Ron,
>
>
>
> The inorganic salts in the cane tops and leave melt and vaporize at low
> temperatures. Even in pyrolysis there is some loss as these elements
> volatilize at low temperatures. But since pyrolysis occurs at lower
> temperatures (300-500C) than combustion (750-800C) more of these elements,
> particularly sodium and potassium, stay with the char.  In Japan the raku
> glaze is made on pottery by simply subjecting rice straw to temperatures
> above 750C which is the melting point of the naturally occurring mixture of
> potassium and silica (2:3) in rice straw. Other glazes like the ones you
> describe are simply combinations of these salts. In gasification sometimes
> we can gasify the carbon in a crop residue by gasifying it inefficiently,
> i.e. leave more carbon, which offsets the tendency for the melted
> components of the ash to agglomerate.
>
>
>
> Bagasse is generated at the mill as a result of crushing the cane. It has
> to be delivered back out to the rural smallholder for him to use it. Trash,
> on the other hand, is left in the field where it must be harvested
> separately from the cane for use. Harvesters like you'll see in Australia
> make billets, or short chunks, of cane and strip the leaves. There is
> increasing environmental pressure to stop burning all over the world so if
> the trash has a use that will justify collecting it then it will be used.
>   There still is a "cane energy network" of sugar mills around the world
> who have been either using or experimenting with combination s of bagasse
> and trash, or bagasse and wood, that can be used to generate power when the
> mill is not crushing. This is the basis of the growth of [power generations
> from bagasse in India. In South and Central America the mills are also
> modernizing to use less energy and to use their residues. You don't change
> an industry overnight. We've been working on this with some mills for about
> 20 years.
>
>
>
> Sugar mills making alcohol are still using molasses. Cellulosic ethanol
> (from bagasse) is still in development which is why it has gotten such a
> large subsidy.  I don't think we will see pyrolysis of bagasse or trash
> until a market value is apparent for the charcoal. It is my understanding
> that oil yields from pyrolysis of grasses and agricultural residues are very
> low which is why woods are preferred.
>
>
>
> I agree that an important objective of this group should be to demonstrate
> the value and use of charcoal. Then let the open market or the policy makers
> make it attractive for industrial interests to produce charcoal with
> qualities that are useful. We have already seen Kingsford/Chlorox ready to
> deliver charcoal by the truckload and that's not the barbecue quality
> charcoal.
>
>
>
> Tom Miles
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Ron Larson [mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net]
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 19, 2007 5:46 PM
> *To:* Tom Miles; 'adkarve'; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] biochar and sugarcane growth (reply to AD
> Karve)
>
>
>
> Tom, AD,  terrapreta list members:
>
>
>
>     I add a few questions to your message of last night:
>
>
>
> As others have remarked the trash (leaves) contain high concentrations of
> nutrients that make it difficult to burn in industrial boilers. These are
> appropriately retained in the char in the ARTI process, which would make a
> good agricultural char.       *[Tom -  This is possibly the first time I
> have heard this - or are we talking about the presence of some components of
> ash that can generate a "glassy" residue?   Is the problem avoided in all
> pyrolysis approaches?   *
>
> *    This is way off topic - but I saw a "kiln" (right word?) once in
> Uzbekistan solely dedicated to combusting (not pyrolyzing) a particular
> difficult-to-harvest mountain-top plant, whose composition led to "pockets"
> of a ceramics glaze (with very nice properties - with almost no further
> processing).  What is a combustion problem for many was the whole point of
> their operation.  (They are doing it now only to honor their village
> traditions  better glazes are available at much lower cost.)]*
>
>
>
> We need to think on two levels in this discussion: (1) the rural
> smallholder, and (2) industrial production.
>
>
>
> Charcoal made from leaves and applied directly by the rural smallholder is
> one economy. The example is the ARTI kiln.   *[RWL:  I have been thinking
> also of some rural small-holder pyrolysis of bagasse - perhaps in
> charcoal-making stoves - but perhaps even without that logical by-product
> use.  I don't believe we have to assume leaves only at the household level.]
> *
>
>
>
> Charcoal made by processing the bagasse residue after processing the cane
> at the mill is another economy. Or, collecting the trash for conversion to
> charcoal at the sugar mill is an industrial economy distinct from the
> smallholder. The examples are the processes converting 100 tpd or more like
> Dynamotive, Renewable Oil Corporation, Ensyn, EPRIDA, and Carbon Diversion
> Technologies (Antal). *[RWL:  Agree mostly.  But this large-scale
> conversion may prove to be best* *with both bagasse and the leaves.  I
> think it probably sub-optimum to leave the leaves (no pun intended) in the
> field for burning (as seems to be practiced worldwide).  The mill I visited
> a few weeks ago in Australia will for the first time ever be leaving no
> leaves in the field (I think in large part because of objections to the
> uncontrolled combustion there)!*
>
>
>
> In recent years large gains have been made in India in converting bagasse
> to heat and power at the sugar mills. And there is pressure at all (900?)
> mills around the world to process the trash. There are also pressures and
> incentive to convert the bagasse and/or trash to liquid fuels. We have
> worked on industrial projects involving both those processes.  *[RWL:  Tom
> - do you know of ANY of those (besides the two I learned of in Australia
> about to start), who are operating the electrical side of the sugar mill
> operation year-around?  I think the mill economics should much improve with
> that mode of operaton - and experts I have talked to say this is not being
> done to their knowledge - and of course have confirmed by experience that
> no-one in the mill business is pyrolyzing anything.*
>
> *    I like the alternative conversion of the bagasse to liquids (either
> cellulosic ethanol or fast pyrolysis) and know of companies doing both with
> bagasse.  But I know of none who are emphasizing charcoal - except as a
> minor byproduct.  Have you worked with any along those lines?  (For anyone
> wanting to try it, I recommend Tom as the best person to start with this
> discussion.)*
>
>
>
> Initially there may be more incentive for a sugar mill to make heat and
> power from bagasse than to make charcoal. There may not be enough value for
> the mill to bring in the trash from the fields for converting it to
> charcoal. That is where there should be an opportunity for small producers
> like JFBiocarbon, BEST Technologies, or char from the modular oil producers
> like Advanced Bio Refinery, Renewable Oil International or Agritherm.  *[RWL:
> Yep - the incentive is not there yet - but to prove there might be an
> appropriae incentive is the reason you started this list.  *
>
> *    I think/hope that the world will soon discover (with the help of
> people in the field like AD and yourself) that the climate and soils
> benefits (neither now being considered in the sugar business apparently) of
> charcoal will exceed the value of any other form of their waste conversion,
> and especially of combusting leaves in the field.  I agree there is a role
> for pyrolyzers at all scales.  Fortunately, AD is an expert on this at the
> family level as well.]*
>
>
>
> See: http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/company
>
>
>
>    Tom - you are doing a great service by advertizing the existence of
> these pioneering firms!      Ron]
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
>
>


-- 
m
"May those who love us, love us;
and those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts;
and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know
them by their limping."
-Irish Blessing
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