[Terrapreta] TP theft.
Kevin Chisholm
kchisholm at ca.inter.net
Thu Nov 22 20:18:15 EST 2007
Dear Sean
I am missing the point you are trying to make.
If we consider Amazonian Terra Preta to be an agricultural soil with a
high inorganic carbon content, then I would pose the following for your
consideration:
* Amazonian Terra Preta does not need pottery shards to be an effective
growing medium.
* Pottery shards are evidence of human activity
* Pottery shards in "black earth" is not evidence that the black earth
was used as Terra Preta for growing crops.
* The absence of pottery shards in "black earth" is not evidence that
the "black earth" has not been used for productive agricultural purposes
as Terra Preta
* Terra Preta could have been made and used by the Amazonians for crop
production, using swamp sludge and other such natural sources of
inorganic carbon.
* The presence of "black earth" is not evidence that Man had anything to
do with its manufacture
* The mere presence of "black earth" is not evidence that it was used by
Man for growing,
Did I cover your point of concern? If not, please state it. Of course,
you are invited to discuss the pro's and con's of the above statements.
Best wishes,
Kevin
Sean K. Barry wrote:
> Hi Kevin,
> The key phrase here is "you would disagree"... I didn’t say pottery
> shards were necessary for the agricultural use of charcoal in soil.
> I said they were evidence of human activity on those sites and the
> intermingling of charcoal bits (not black Earth, not swamp sludge) and
> pottery shards is up to 2 meters deep in some places. People made the
> Amazon TP soils and people put pottery shards into it, too.
> Regards,
> SKB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Kevin Chisholm <mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> *To:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> *Cc:* lou gold <mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com> ; Terrapreta
> <mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 22, 2007 6:18 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] TP theft.
>
> Dear Sean
>
> Sean K. Barry wrote:
> > Hi Kevin,
> >
> > Pottery shards are the proposed evidence that the Terra Preta
> > formations in the Amazon are man-made.
> I would disagree with this definition. It is quite possible that the
> Natives discarded their broken pottery into a swamp, or a
> sinkhole, that
> had no man-made charcoal, and was not used by man for Cultivation.
> One
> could argue more reasonably that such a construction was merely "a
> dump
> in a swamp." This would certainly not be anywhere near the generally
> understood definition of "Amazonian anthropogenic Terra Preta"
> that was
> made using charcoal, and was productively used for agricultural
> purposes.
>
> It is yet to be demonstrated that pottery shards are an essential
> feature to successful agricultural Terra Preta. Indeed, the
> success of
> the Holland Marsh, and many hundreds of thousands of hectares of
> "Black
> Earth Growing Sites throughout the world would strongly suggest that
> pottery shards are an incidental, and not a required feature of
> agricultural Terra Preta.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > SKB
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Kevin Chisholm <mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> > *To:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> > *Cc:* lou gold <mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com> ; Terrapreta
> > <mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, November 22, 2007 12:28 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] TP theft.
> >
> > Sean K. Barry wrote:
> > > Hi Kevin,
> > >
> > > Are there any shards of pottery in the eutrophied lakes in Canada?
> > Not that I know of. Why do you ask?
> >
> > Do you feel that pottery shards are essential for TP to function as
> > intended? I haven't heard of pottery shards being found in teh
> > Holland
> > Marsh, but it seems to work very well.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Kevin
> > >
> > > SKB
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > *From:* Kevin Chisholm <mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> > > *To:* lou gold <mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com>
> > > *Cc:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> ; Terrapreta
> > > <mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> > > *Sent:* Thursday, November 22, 2007 9:13 AM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] TP theft.
> > >
> > > Dear Lou
> > >
> > > lou gold wrote:
> > > > Hi Sean and All,
> > > >
> > > > Since Brazil is a poor place, especially in Amazonian rural
> > > areas, TP
> > > > most likely does get stolen.
> > > >
> > > > However, I recently saw something about "commercial mining" of
> > > it that
> > > > sounded very responsible. The guy extracted it but left
> > the bottom
> > > > 20cm. It would grow "back to full depth" in 20 years. I'm
> > > suspecting
> > > > that eventually there will be specialty "nursery" plots
> > growing
> > > "seed"
> > > > or "starter" TP for use in other locations, nearby and
> > far away. .
> > > The above comment has enormous potential implications , if it is
> > > true.
> > > On the one hand, it may simply be a lie told by a devious
> > Terra
> > > Preta
> > > Miner, (TPM) so that people don't get worked up when he
> > takes their
> > > irreplaceable Terra Preta. Given all that has been said on
> > this list
> > > about the char requirement for Terra Preta formation, it is
> > likely
> > > that
> > > the TPM is a blatant liar. :-)
> > >
> > > On the other hand, if the TPM's observation is substantially
> > true and
> > > accurate, it completely changes the fundamental formative
> > > mechanism for
> > > TP. There is a possibility that the TPM is telling the
> > truth, and
> > > that
> > > Terra Preta can be formed naturally, and charing of biomass
> > by Man
> > > was
> > > not an essential step in its creation.
> > >
> > > 1: There is a pond in front of where I live. In the Summer,
> > pond weed
> > > drifts into a cove, and decomposes anaerobically to give a black
> > > goop on
> > > the bottom When stirred up, the water turns black. The pond weed
> > > is not
> > > consumed totally by pond life forms, but rather, a black
> > material is
> > > left behind. It could be "black carbon."
> > >
> > > 2: In Northern Canada, there are millions of hectares of
> > Humified
> > > Peat,
> > > where the the original sedges and mosses are decomposed
> > to the
> > > point
> > > that little or none of their original plant structure
> > remains. What
> > > does remain is a "black carbon-like" material.
> > >
> > > 3: Many Farmers drain swampy areas, and start a Market Gardening
> > > Operation, because vegetables grow so very well in the
> > "black earth"
> > > that they uncover. Do a Google Search on "Terre Noire",
> > "Terre Noire
> > > Canada", and "Black Earth". See also
> > > > http://www.blackearth.org/History/History.html
> > > In speaking to a Member of the Historical Society, the
> > Community of
> > > Black Earth seems to be built on a eutrophied lake. However,
> > there
> > > was
> > > indeed an Indian Community well established there, long
> > before the
> > > White
> > > Settlers came. The water table is very close to the surface, and
> > > buildings of any size require pilings for foundation support.
> > >
> > > There is thus reason to hypothesize that Terra Preta was not man
> > > made,
> > > but rather, is a natural phenomenon.
> > >
> > > It is interesting to note that on Gerhards site
> > > > http://www.gerhardbechtold.com/TP/Belterra2.php?vers=2
> > > the Terra Preta locations are generally confined to
> > depressions. It
> > > could be that these are sinkholes that were eutrophied. As a
> > > depression,
> > > they would be a great place for the Natives to dispose of their
> > > garbage
> > > and broken pottery.
> > >
> > > So, it just might be that the Terra Preta Miner has given a
> > > fundamental
> > > insight into the formative mechanism for Terra Preta.
> > >
> > > If you are interested in pursuing this further, perhaps you
> > could
> > > inquire to determine how many of the Terra Preta Sites in your
> > > area are
> > > in low lying areas with a high water table.
> > >
> > > I would be very interested in, and appreciative of, any
> > comments or
> > > observations you can make.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Kevin
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I think this is a very attractive story for our messaging --
> > > > "sustainable mining" with the TP growing back. It truly is
> > sort of
> > > > mind-blowing in terms of standard popular expections about
> > > "dirt", and
> > > > therefore an attention-getter. And, as TP becomes more
> > known and
> > > > valuable, it might be necessary to guard the original
> > Amazonian
> > > plots
> > > > against theft or irresponsible forms of extraction.
> > > >
> > > > Happy messaging to all,
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 21, 2007 10:33 PM, Sean K. Barry
> > <sean.barry at juno.com <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> > > <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> > > > <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Lou,
> > > >
> > > > I think I saw this way back, middle of 200, on a Cornell
> > > website ,
> > > > or EPRIDA, or Christosph Steiner. I'll see if I can
> > find it.
> > > > They had a picture and described the soil as so
> > valuable that
> > > > thieves come onto TP land and take it away to sell
> > (the illegal
> > > > part is its not their land). It said also that if some TP
> > > soil is
> > > > left on the ground, that it regenerates, but over
> > time. It
> > > is not
> > > > possible, either, to ship TP soil out of Brazil.
> > > > If one sat on 2 meters of the stuff, though, you would
> > think one
> > > > could mine out the bottom meter and a half and sell
> > it, while
> > > > still being able to grow crops. The world needs a
> > whole lot
> > > more
> > > > soil turned into TP soil, though, more than all the TP
> > soil you
> > > > could ever find in the Amazon rain basin. We are supposed
> > > to turn
> > > > France into TP soil many times over!
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > SKB
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > *From:* lou gold <mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com>
> > > > *To:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:56 AM
> > > > *Subject:* question
> > > >
> > > > Hi Sean,
> > > >
> > > > Where did you get the idea that lots of terra
> > preta is being
> > > > mined illegally in Brazil?
> > > > I have only seen positive references about how
> > leaving a
> > > depth
> > > > of 20cm allows it to
> > > > grow back. Have I missed something?
> > > >
> > > > Just asking so that we can all polish our messages.
> > > >
> > > > lou
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > http://lougold.blogspot.com/
> > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/visionshare/sets/
> > > > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/visionshare/sets/>
> > > >
> > >
> >
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