[Terrapreta] TP theft.
lou gold
lou.gold at gmail.com
Thu Nov 22 20:30:00 EST 2007
Hi All,
Perhaps I can help.
If pottery sherds and pieces of charcoal were the ONLY evidence, this could
easily be a garbage dump that serendipitously developed iinto an amazingly
prooductive plot of land. But there is an added piece of evidence -- this
particular magical mixture was spread or broadcast across much larger areas
that were located at the periphery of what seem to be settlements but at a
greater distance than required for a middens. There's just no reason to haul
garbage farther than necessary, unless for agriculture.
hugs,
lou
On Nov 22, 2007 11:18 PM, Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
> Dear Sean
>
> I am missing the point you are trying to make.
>
> If we consider Amazonian Terra Preta to be an agricultural soil with a
> high inorganic carbon content, then I would pose the following for your
> consideration:
>
> * Amazonian Terra Preta does not need pottery shards to be an effective
> growing medium.
> * Pottery shards are evidence of human activity
> * Pottery shards in "black earth" is not evidence that the black earth
> was used as Terra Preta for growing crops.
> * The absence of pottery shards in "black earth" is not evidence that
> the "black earth" has not been used for productive agricultural purposes
> as Terra Preta
> * Terra Preta could have been made and used by the Amazonians for crop
> production, using swamp sludge and other such natural sources of
> inorganic carbon.
> * The presence of "black earth" is not evidence that Man had anything to
> do with its manufacture
> * The mere presence of "black earth" is not evidence that it was used by
> Man for growing,
>
> Did I cover your point of concern? If not, please state it. Of course,
> you are invited to discuss the pro's and con's of the above statements.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
> Sean K. Barry wrote:
> > Hi Kevin,
> > The key phrase here is "you would disagree"... I didn't say pottery
> > shards were necessary for the agricultural use of charcoal in soil.
> > I said they were evidence of human activity on those sites and the
> > intermingling of charcoal bits (not black Earth, not swamp sludge) and
> > pottery shards is up to 2 meters deep in some places. People made the
> > Amazon TP soils and people put pottery shards into it, too.
> > Regards,
> > SKB
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Kevin Chisholm <mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> > *To:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> > *Cc:* lou gold <mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com> ; Terrapreta
> > <mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, November 22, 2007 6:18 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] TP theft.
> >
> > Dear Sean
> >
> > Sean K. Barry wrote:
> > > Hi Kevin,
> > >
> > > Pottery shards are the proposed evidence that the Terra Preta
> > > formations in the Amazon are man-made.
> > I would disagree with this definition. It is quite possible that the
> > Natives discarded their broken pottery into a swamp, or a
> > sinkhole, that
> > had no man-made charcoal, and was not used by man for Cultivation.
> > One
> > could argue more reasonably that such a construction was merely "a
> > dump
> > in a swamp." This would certainly not be anywhere near the generally
> > understood definition of "Amazonian anthropogenic Terra Preta"
> > that was
> > made using charcoal, and was productively used for agricultural
> > purposes.
> >
> > It is yet to be demonstrated that pottery shards are an essential
> > feature to successful agricultural Terra Preta. Indeed, the
> > success of
> > the Holland Marsh, and many hundreds of thousands of hectares of
> > "Black
> > Earth Growing Sites throughout the world would strongly suggest that
> > pottery shards are an incidental, and not a required feature of
> > agricultural Terra Preta.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Kevin
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > SKB
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > *From:* Kevin Chisholm <mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> > > *To:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> > > *Cc:* lou gold <mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com> ; Terrapreta
> > > <mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> > > *Sent:* Thursday, November 22, 2007 12:28 PM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] TP theft.
> > >
> > > Sean K. Barry wrote:
> > > > Hi Kevin,
> > > >
> > > > Are there any shards of pottery in the eutrophied lakes in
> Canada?
> > > Not that I know of. Why do you ask?
> > >
> > > Do you feel that pottery shards are essential for TP to function
> as
> > > intended? I haven't heard of pottery shards being found in teh
> > > Holland
> > > Marsh, but it seems to work very well.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Kevin
> > > >
> > > > SKB
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > *From:* Kevin Chisholm <mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> > > > *To:* lou gold <mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com>
> > > > *Cc:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> ; Terrapreta
> > > > <mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> > > > *Sent:* Thursday, November 22, 2007 9:13 AM
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] TP theft.
> > > >
> > > > Dear Lou
> > > >
> > > > lou gold wrote:
> > > > > Hi Sean and All,
> > > > >
> > > > > Since Brazil is a poor place, especially in Amazonian rural
> > > > areas, TP
> > > > > most likely does get stolen.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, I recently saw something about "commercial mining" of
> > > > it that
> > > > > sounded very responsible. The guy extracted it but left
> > > the bottom
> > > > > 20cm. It would grow "back to full depth" in 20 years. I'm
> > > > suspecting
> > > > > that eventually there will be specialty "nursery" plots
> > > growing
> > > > "seed"
> > > > > or "starter" TP for use in other locations, nearby and
> > > far away. .
> > > > The above comment has enormous potential implications , if it is
> > > > true.
> > > > On the one hand, it may simply be a lie told by a devious
> > > Terra
> > > > Preta
> > > > Miner, (TPM) so that people don't get worked up when he
> > > takes their
> > > > irreplaceable Terra Preta. Given all that has been said on
> > > this list
> > > > about the char requirement for Terra Preta formation, it is
> > > likely
> > > > that
> > > > the TPM is a blatant liar. :-)
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, if the TPM's observation is substantially
> > > true and
> > > > accurate, it completely changes the fundamental formative
> > > > mechanism for
> > > > TP. There is a possibility that the TPM is telling the
> > > truth, and
> > > > that
> > > > Terra Preta can be formed naturally, and charing of biomass
> > > by Man
> > > > was
> > > > not an essential step in its creation.
> > > >
> > > > 1: There is a pond in front of where I live. In the Summer,
> > > pond weed
> > > > drifts into a cove, and decomposes anaerobically to give a black
> > > > goop on
> > > > the bottom When stirred up, the water turns black. The pond weed
> > > > is not
> > > > consumed totally by pond life forms, but rather, a black
> > > material is
> > > > left behind. It could be "black carbon."
> > > >
> > > > 2: In Northern Canada, there are millions of hectares of
> > > Humified
> > > > Peat,
> > > > where the the original sedges and mosses are decomposed
> > > to the
> > > > point
> > > > that little or none of their original plant structure
> > > remains. What
> > > > does remain is a "black carbon-like" material.
> > > >
> > > > 3: Many Farmers drain swampy areas, and start a Market Gardening
> > > > Operation, because vegetables grow so very well in the
> > > "black earth"
> > > > that they uncover. Do a Google Search on "Terre Noire",
> > > "Terre Noire
> > > > Canada", and "Black Earth". See also
> > > > > http://www.blackearth.org/History/History.html
> > > > In speaking to a Member of the Historical Society, the
> > > Community of
> > > > Black Earth seems to be built on a eutrophied lake. However,
> > > there
> > > > was
> > > > indeed an Indian Community well established there, long
> > > before the
> > > > White
> > > > Settlers came. The water table is very close to the surface, and
> > > > buildings of any size require pilings for foundation support.
> > > >
> > > > There is thus reason to hypothesize that Terra Preta was not man
> > > > made,
> > > > but rather, is a natural phenomenon.
> > > >
> > > > It is interesting to note that on Gerhards site
> > > > > http://www.gerhardbechtold.com/TP/Belterra2.php?vers=2
> > > > the Terra Preta locations are generally confined to
> > > depressions. It
> > > > could be that these are sinkholes that were eutrophied. As a
> > > > depression,
> > > > they would be a great place for the Natives to dispose of their
> > > > garbage
> > > > and broken pottery.
> > > >
> > > > So, it just might be that the Terra Preta Miner has given a
> > > > fundamental
> > > > insight into the formative mechanism for Terra Preta.
> > > >
> > > > If you are interested in pursuing this further, perhaps you
> > > could
> > > > inquire to determine how many of the Terra Preta Sites in your
> > > > area are
> > > > in low lying areas with a high water table.
> > > >
> > > > I would be very interested in, and appreciative of, any
> > > comments or
> > > > observations you can make.
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes,
> > > >
> > > > Kevin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this is a very attractive story for our messaging --
> > > > > "sustainable mining" with the TP growing back. It truly is
> > > sort of
> > > > > mind-blowing in terms of standard popular expections about
> > > > "dirt", and
> > > > > therefore an attention-getter. And, as TP becomes more
> > > known and
> > > > > valuable, it might be necessary to guard the original
> > > Amazonian
> > > > plots
> > > > > against theft or irresponsible forms of extraction.
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy messaging to all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 21, 2007 10:33 PM, Sean K. Barry
> > > <sean.barry at juno.com <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> > <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> > > > <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> > > > > <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Lou,
> > > > >
> > > > > I think I saw this way back, middle of 200, on a Cornell
> > > > website ,
> > > > > or EPRIDA, or Christosph Steiner. I'll see if I can
> > > find it.
> > > > > They had a picture and described the soil as so
> > > valuable that
> > > > > thieves come onto TP land and take it away to sell
> > > (the illegal
> > > > > part is its not their land). It said also that if some TP
> > > > soil is
> > > > > left on the ground, that it regenerates, but over
> > > time. It
> > > > is not
> > > > > possible, either, to ship TP soil out of Brazil.
> > > > > If one sat on 2 meters of the stuff, though, you would
> > > think one
> > > > > could mine out the bottom meter and a half and sell
> > > it, while
> > > > > still being able to grow crops. The world needs a
> > > whole lot
> > > > more
> > > > > soil turned into TP soil, though, more than all the TP
> > > soil you
> > > > > could ever find in the Amazon rain basin. We are supposed
> > > > to turn
> > > > > France into TP soil many times over!
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > SKB
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > *From:* lou gold <mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com>
> > > > > *To:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:56 AM
> > > > > *Subject:* question
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Sean,
> > > > >
> > > > > Where did you get the idea that lots of terra
> > > preta is being
> > > > > mined illegally in Brazil?
> > > > > I have only seen positive references about how
> > > leaving a
> > > > depth
> > > > > of 20cm allows it to
> > > > > grow back. Have I missed something?
> > > > >
> > > > > Just asking so that we can all polish our messages.
> > > > >
> > > > > lou
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > http://lougold.blogspot.com/
> > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/visionshare/sets/
> > > > > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/visionshare/sets/>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > >
> >
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--
http://lougold.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/visionshare/sets/
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