[Terrapreta] Terra Preta - not just about charcoal in soil

[Sean K. Barry]

Hi David,

There is lots in what you just said that makes some sense to me right away; like, adding charcoal to soil (and hence more carbon) throws off the C/N balance.  That lightening bolt came to me probably as it came to you.

The charcoal soaks up the nitrogen?  Now that one ... that's interesting and not so obvious to me.  How does it do that?  Does the charcoal bind up the nitrogen into nitrogen bearing molecules?  Is it the carbon part of the charcoal or the VM part that soaks it up?  What are the resulting nitrogen bearing compounds?  Are these deep inside the charcoal or on the surface?  Are they available to plants (it seems not)?

Oh, this is kind of a paradox I am in here, but I need to ask?  Can I ask you questions?  Or, should I just read your stories and presume that you know the truth in most ways that I cannot even possibly divine by asking my naïve questions?

I need to go now and deal with (your buddy) Francoise's web site references, okay?

Regards,

SKB
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Yarrow<mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com> 
  To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 8:35 PM
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terra Preta - not just about charcoal in soil


  yes, a biological ecosystem will seek a carbon-nitrogen equilibrium.  both C & N are used in biological architecture and energy exchange, most fundamentally to create amino acids, and thence proteins, enzymes, DNA.

  dumping cooked, sterile char on any ecosystem will throw the C/N ratio way over to C.  a microbial and molecular scramble results as nature moves the intruded mass of C toward an equilibrium with N and the rest.

  in particular, most of the N that the char soaks up is digested, assimilated and organized into microbial protoplasm of bacteria and fungi that take up residence in the char micropores.  much of this is N in its highest forms -- amino acids, proteins, enzymes, hormones, membranes, DNA -- living cellular biomass, not inert rotting organic matter.   the first year or two after new char is added to soil, a lot of mineral N will disappear into organic N built into biomolecules in living cellular protoplasm.

  even if we add N to the char -- either by making char from manure, or blending N in after char is cooked --  a lag will still occur before N is fully available.  the inertias and cycles of feeding, growth, replication, distribution, and diversification mean it takes time -- a few months -- for biology to digest and re-organize all the chemistry left (and added) after the fire of pyrolysis dies.  not only to grow a critical biomass of microbes, but to develop the complex independent diversified stable community required for single cells to suvive.

  we can cut the time for this assimilation and redistribution to occur by inoculating and incubating the char before it is broadcast into soil.

  one critical goal of this microbiology is to encourage N-fixing bacteria to blossom in this burgeoning microbial community.  the more microbes there are sequestering N out of air into soil, the faster protein synthesis can occur.  it is clear certain trace elements -- especially cobalt & molybdenum -- are often the limiting factor in the proliferation of N-fixing bacteria and their specialized enzymes.

  i recommend sea minerals, seawater, seaweed, sea vegetables and sea salt as ideal full spectrum mineral & trace element sources.  good for your blood, good for your body, good for your soil.

  my two cents.

  David Yarrow
  "If yer not forest, yer against us."
  Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
  44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
  dyarrow at nycap.rr.com<mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com>
  www.championtrees.org<http://www.championtrees.org/>
  www.OnondagaLakePeaceFestival.org<http://www.onondagalakepeacefestival.org/>
  www.citizenre.com/dyarrow/<http://www.citizenre.com/dyarrow/>
  www.farmandfood.org<http://www.farmandfood.org/>
  www.SeaAgri.com<http://www.seaagri.com/>
   
  "Happiness can be found even in the darkest of times, 
  if one only remembers to turn on the light."  
  -Albus Dumbledore
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Jon C. Frank<mailto:jon.frank at aglabs.com> 
    To: Terrapreta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
    Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 6:26 PM
    Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terra Preta - not just about charcoal in soil


    The reason I mentioned nitrogen deficiency is because that is what the farmer observed and told us when he used charcoal.  We can learn a lot form people who observe nature.

    How can charcoal lead to an N deficiency?  Not 100% on that but I suspect the soil is always trying to come to an equilibrium point in regards to Carbon vs. Nitrogen and by adding more carbon the soil needs more nitrogen to reach the equilibrium point.  Just my theory.  No Sean I won't waste my time trying to validate or invalidate the theory.

    To validate all you need to do is look for a nitrogen deficiency.  Further validation may come from analyzing tissue for nitrogen.  The easiest way to do that is to use a field meter such as:
    http://www.specmeters.com/Chlorophyll_Meters/Minolta_SPAD_502_Meter.html<http://www.specmeters.com/Chlorophyll_Meters/Minolta_SPAD_502_Meter.html>

    To prevent this N deficiency put on more nitrogen when using charcoal.  Not a politically correct answer but it is a great answer when you are a consultant and people depend on you to make help them get a good crop.

    Jon
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Sean K. Barry [mailto:sean.barry at juno.com]
      Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 11:49 AM
      To: Terrapreta; Jon C. Frank
      Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terra Preta - not just about charcoal in soil


      Hi Jon,

      How could charcoal lead to a nitrogen shortage (in soil is where I presume you are speaking of)?  Can you suggest any ways to validate this?  Can you suggest any ways to prevent this?

      Regards,

      SKB
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Jon C. Frank<mailto:jon.frank at aglabs.com> 
        To: Terrapreta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
        Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 11:09 AM
        Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terra Preta - not just about charcoal in soil


        Just adding charcoal may lead to a nitrogen shortage.

        Jon
        www.aglabs.com<http://www.aglabs.com/>

          -----Original Message-----
          From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org]On Behalf Of Sean K. Barry
          Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:12 AM
          To: Robert Flanagan; Kevin Chisholm
          Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
          Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terra Preta - not just about charcoal in soil


          Hi Kevin, Robert,

          Good questions, Kevin!  Right on point as I see it.  I would maybe add one more request, Robert.  4. Could we see if adding just charcoal made from the stover on a plot continues to show soil with "... a profound effect on plant development with no other soil fertility program".  You must be careful that only charcoal made from the wastes on the plot is used.  Adding more rice hull charcoal, for instance, would add some fertilizing nutrients that were taken from the soil that the rice grew in.  Adding new rice hull charcoal would not show the benefits of charcoal alone in the soil.

          As I see it, the contention in recent discussions has been that charcoal made from the plant crop wastes alone (corn stover) on an agricultural field, when applied to that field (alone, up to 10 or 50 repeated times) is all that is required to increase or maintain the soil fertility.  My reading is that this is NOT TRUE.  I do not see that the nutrient content can be maintained, as each harvest of the corn cobs will deplete the nutrients and the charred stover will add nothing new beyond what was there when the crop sprouted.

          Adding anything else would not reveal the value of charcoal in the soil.

          Regards,

          SKB
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