[Terrapreta] Fw: Durability of charcoal as carbon sink?

[Sean K. Barry]

Hi Edward, Brian, and other 'terrapreta' list members,

Edward, below is a POSTING received from you very early on in your subscription to this list, where you describe the "Durability of charcoal as a carbon sink?".  It was your interjected response to a discussion I was having with Duane Pendergast and Dr. Christoph Steiner about poisble ways to experimentally "measure" the durability of charcoal in soil.   I thanked you for the information then and I will again now + repost this to the list here again.  I do not know where you get this information, but I assumed the source reliable and the research valid and well documented.

You suggest that charcoal in soil is clearly long lived (in humand terms, some several 100s to 10,000 years).

Regards,

SKB
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Edward Someus<mailto:edward at terrenum.net> 
To: Christoph Steiner<mailto:Christoph.Steiner at uni-bayreuth.de> ; Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> 
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Durability of charcoal as carbon sink?


      Dear All, 

      I am new member in the TERR PRETA network. 

      INTRODUCTION: My name is Edward Someus, a Swedish environmental engineer. WEB:   www.terrenum.net <http://www.terrenum.net/> My organization is one of the leading carbonization technology international development  and engineering organization, is short COAL & CARBON for clean coal energy and biological available carbons. Past years I had several large EU projects in this subject. Beyond the carbonization thermal treatment an other applied research thematic I work on is carbon/mineral/microorganism/plant interrelations is agricultural soils, where I biologically - plant available mobilize minerals and reformulate organic materials by an innovative solid state fermentation and formulation technology, for which results I have ongoing tests in Italy, Israel, The Netherlands, Germany and Hungary. 

      RE I am assuming, by hypothesis, that the "fixed carbon in charcoal" is NOT DECOMPOSED by microbes ................

      YES FIX CARBON IN CHARCOAL WILL BE DECOMPOSED sooner or later, from nature point of view rapidly, but from human point of view slowly. Carbonized organic matter, as charcoal, consists mainly of elemental carbon and inorganic compounds, and is generally thought to be immune to short term biochemical decay and natural recycling. While some forms of organic carbon,such as fresh organic matter,are quickly recycled,other more resistant forms,such as charcoal, are recycled at a much slower rate.This recycling follows a linear progression though time when considered within the site-specific context,and includes the factors that influence biochemical degradation of organic carbon. Charcoal once thought to be inert, is biologically recycled at a slow but measurable rate. Therefore, the decomposition rates are (approx. Estimated) somewhere between 10,000 and a couple of 100s of years, more or less, all depending on the soil condition.  However, some geological conditions may conserve carbon for very long time. The effect of the biochemical degradation of charcoal and soil humic material is measured by a ratio of the total organic carbon to the readily oxidizable carbon in the soil sample.  In general, as the total amount of organic carbon decreases though time due to recycling, the relative percentage of readily oxidizable carbon increases.  This ratio is  the Oxidizable Carbon Ratio.  The rate of biochemical degradation will vary within the specific physical and environmental contexts of the sample.  An age estimate of the organic carbon is determined through a systems formula that accounts for the biological influences of oxygen, moisture, temperature, carbon concentration, and the soil reactivity. 





      Sincerely yours: Edward Someus (environmental engineer)
      Terra Humana Clean Technology Engineering Ltd. 
      (ISO 9001 and ISO 14001 certified organization for scientific research, technical development and industrial performance engineering design of agro-biotechnological and pyrolysis methods, apparatus and applications) 

      ADDRESS: H-1222 Budapest, Szechenyi 59, Hungary
      TEL handy:  +(36-20) 201 7557
      TEL / FAX:   +(36-1) 424 0224
      TEL SKYPE phone via computer:  Edward Someus
      WEB:   www.terrenum.net <http://www.terrenum.net/>
      -------Original Message-------

      From: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
      Date: 2007.06.03. 2:44:33
      To: Christoph Steiner<mailto:Christoph.Steiner at uni-bayreuth.de>
      Cc: terrapreta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
      Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Durability of charcoal as carbon sink?

      Hi Christoph and All,

      Would you think something like measured weights of vermiculite, NPK fertlizer, charcoal, maybe come clean sand? , and water might be the mixture to test?  Would the control for the experiment work as a growth medium, if it were the same mixture, sans the charcoal?  Would this experiment be conducted in a container separate from soil, but in the open air?  

      My thinking went like this; that you could take a few measurements of any soil/charcoal mixture and get a baseline of "input carbon from charcoal" into the system.  The ATSM "proximate analysis" test says it measures moisture content, %fixed carbon, %VM (volatile matter), and %ash.  The test can be conducted on soil or charcoal samples.  The weight of the "input carbon", the to be "sequestered carbon from charcoal", should be measured separately.

      With the "proximate analysis" measurement and a weigh scale, measure these things;

          1) get a proximate analysis of a sample of just the charcoal (used in the mixture), separately, 

          3) weigh the charcoal,

          3) get a proximate analysis of any sample of the well mixed soil/charcoal mixture,

          4) weigh the soil/charcoal mixture, which is all going into a closed system container, and

          5) compute the weight of the "sequestered carbon from charcoal" as the the weight
              of the charcoal times ( 100 - %VM(charcoal) - %ash(charcoal) ) / 100.

      If we assume the water is maintained in the soil and control at a certain moisture content, the greenhouse is ventilated in open air, and with atmospheric CO2 levels where they are at now (CO2 @ 469 ppm?), then the control and the test sample would be in the same environment (unless you separated them a great distance).

      I don't think the flow of carbon dioxide gas in/out or oxygen out matters in this experiment.  These relate to the photosynthesis activity of the plants, the biologic respiration of the soil microbiology, the decomposition rates of the soil organic matter (and VM), and nutrient uptake by the plants, etc.  These do not effect the "sequestered carbon from charcoal" (Do they?).  But, I would expect these might/will change the net carbon and the %C(soil) versus that of the baseline soil sample.

      But, there is a simplification I thought of for this experiment.  What we are only interested in is measuring the carbon level (regardless of source or in/out flux rate of carbon to/from the soil or the system).  We expect, by hypothesis, for it to stay at the baseline level (as it was on the "carbon sequestration incept date").  The amount of carbon in the soil could/should get larger in the soil, but it also should never drop below the baseline "sequestered carbon from charcoal" level.  This is a statement the hypothesis, again.  Just measure the charcoal level in the soil.

      If the level drops, then the hypothesis was not met, and the experiment is over.  The result of the experiment would then be "sequestered carbon from charcoal" is "not resilient", but rather, "decaying".  We might then try to determine the "rate of decay".  The hypothesis says, we expect the soil should stay at the baseline level or grow in carbon content continuously (regardless of other inputs and/or outputs) for a long period of time.

      In other words, we are determining only if the baseline level of just the "sequestered carbon" is resilient over time?  We don't care about the flows of any other carbon.

      As long as we don't "disturb" the system too much, or take anything in or out of that closed system, I expect the natural carbon cycle would maintain that soil "always" at or above the baseline level.  Do you think?  Even growing plants in that soil and harvesting them continuously is not going to reduce or change the "carbon from charcoal" content in the soil.

      I am assuming, by hypothesis, that the "fixed carbon in charcoal" is NOT DECOMPOSED by microbes (but the VM may be), and that the "fixed carbon" is NOT TAKEN UP in any way by plant roots (plants only get carbon from gaseous CO2 in the air and/or water).  We're not mining it out or letting it wash away from the experiment, either.  So, the soil carbon content and soil organic matter may well or will go up (mostly, and possibly down?), but the "sequestered carbon from charcoal" will stay, and the soil carbon content (weight of soil*%C(soil)) WILL NEVER GO BELOW THE BASELINE "SEQUESTERED CARBON FROM CHARCOAL" LEVEL (weight of charcoal*%C(charcoal)).  Isn't that all we are trying to show?

      Do any external fluxes matter at all, if we are only interested in measuring if the carbon that we put in soil goes away?

      I think if any random "proximate analysis" of the soil/charcoal mixture were made on any date after the "sequestration incept date" and then compared to the baseline measurements, then it can show whether or not the "sequestered carbon from charcoal" is reslient over time.  No other measurements would be needed.

      The results will show the hypothesis is met

          (weight of mixture*C%(mixture post)) / (weight of charcoal*C%(charcoal)) always > 1.0 ?

      Or, they will show it isn't met.

      Do you think this will work?  Did I miss something?

      Duane, do you think a successful, continuous, long term experiment like this, which would validate this hypothesis, will suffice for
      proof that "sequestered carbon from charcoal" stays in the soil for a very long period of time.

      There is another argument to lend support to this hypothesis, which can be made, I think too;  Since soil carbon content is significantly greater in the original 2500-6000 year old Terra Preta than in the surrounding native soils, then the "carbon in the form of charcoal, which was added to the soil" by the ancient Amazonians is all still mostly there.  We can see it. 
      We can see it in the Terra Preta soil (which has the high carbon%) and we don't see it in the control (native soils right next to it with low C%).  There is carbon from the charcoal along with probably a whole lot more in the enhanced soil organic matter in the Terra Preta soil.  If you could take all of the "carbon from charcoal" out of the original Terra Preta, then it may still have more carbon in the soil organic matter left, than the native soils do.  Bottom line is, no matter how you cut it, there is still as much carbon in the original Terra Preta as was in all of the charcoal that was put into it, and then some more from later growth by soil microorganisms.  This growth in soil organic matter didn't happen in the native soils.  It begins to look fairly obvious; putting carbon from charcoal in soil isn't going to make carbon decay out of the soil, its going to make the soil hold even more carbon.  The carbon is just a stable catalyst, not a reactant or a product in the phenomenon.

      I say those seeking earnings from "carbon credits" can say,

      "Pay me only for what carbon I put in the soil now and I can promise that soil will hold even more carbon in the future.  That's gratis."

      They could become a very rich person selling a deal like that.  Don't you think?

      It's proven!  Q.E.D.  Let's get the CDM Executive Board to see this and change the rules now.  Chop! Chop!



      Regards,

      SKB
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Christoph Steiner<mailto:Christoph.Steiner at uni-bayreuth.de> 
      To: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> 
      Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:53 AM
      Subject: Re: Durability of charcoal as carbon sink?


      Dear Sean,

      I got more than 50 answers to my latest post, therefore I need to be
      short. Do you intend to measure CO2 fluxes? If so you need to consider
      that you have quite a big external impact. Soil and charcoal came from
      external sources. Maybe it would be possible to plant in inorganic
      substrate (like it is done in hydroponics). The only organic carbon source
      is the charcoal. This might make it easier to distinguish between the
      different carbon sources.

      Best,
      Christoph


      > Of course those designing an accounting system will want proof that
      > charcoal does keep the sink out of the atmosphere with no significant
      > return through decay or conversion back to greenhouse gases in any way in
      > a time period for which the future value remains significant.
      >
      >
      > Duane
      >
      >
      >
      >



     
             
     
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