[Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
Gerald Van Koeverden
vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca
Tue Sep 11 22:13:09 EDT 2007
Farms: the bigger the better, because of economies of scale? The
optimum size is usually not the biggest.
In China they say that the best fertilizer is a farmer's footsteps -
his being able to see what is happening and respond to the needs of
his crops and animals in a timely fashion.
I like to think of the farmer with too much land as one with too many
girl friends...
Gerrit
On 11-Sep-07, at 9:29 PM, Nikolaus Foidl wrote:
> Dear all!
>
> Its mere philosophic issue if the land is degraded or not, the
> important
> issue is does it still produce to feed the owner of the land, is
> the actual
> use economically positive for the owner. Then we can think about
> improving
> the economics of this actual use by improving the quality of the
> soil and
> hence the productivity. All these people do not have much of a
> choice , they
> get the land from there ancestors and have to live and economically
> survive
> in a given economic environment. If you lose just on 3 or 5 % of
> your costs
> per acre production in 3 or 4 years you are negative in there economic
> result.
> As bigger the farms get as better they survive ( economic of scale)
> but less
> technological sound alternatives are available. I work for 14.000
> ha Farm
> who produces 2 to 3 crops a year under very calculated rotating
> conditions
> where we try to keep organic matter over 3.5 % but our window of
> alternatives is very small and if we commit an slight error we are
> done. In
> our area the economic size starts with over 2000 ha , below you
> have no
> chance to survive. So please less of moral lessons and more of sound
> practical but as well economical solutions for a way out of the
> mess we all
> are in at the moment. Nature itself does not care, we care and its
> a very
> subjective definition of good or bad. Well I live in BOLIVIA WHERE
> THERE ARE
> NO RESCUE PLANS FOR BROKE FARMERS LIKE IN THE STATES.
> Best regards Nikolaus
> P.S. We are doing 5 ha trials with 40 tons of charcoal adding per
> ha in
> Maize, soy and sunflower , in one year we will have some results to
> tell,
> but now its all pure speculation.
>
>
> On 9/11/07 5:40 PM, "terrapreta-request at bioenergylists.org"
> <terrapreta-request at bioenergylists.org> wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Ron Larson)
>> 2. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Gerald Van Koeverden)
>> 3. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Sean K. Barry)
>> 4. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Sean K. Barry)
>> 5. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Sean K. Barry)
>> 6. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Kevin Chisholm)
>> 7. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Nat Tuivavalagi)
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:05:23 -0600
>> From: "Ron Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>> To: "Jon C. Frank" <jon.frank at aglabs.com>, "Terrapreta"
>> <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> Message-ID: <004f01c7f4bf$da9afdf0$6400a8c0 at Laptop>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Jon:
>>
>> You have described something that is approaching true
>> commercial scale.
>> Could you ask this "customer" at what price he would be willing to
>> buy similar
>> char? Need to ask with various assumptions on what happens to
>> productivity in
>> out-years - including the option that there would be no diminution in
>> production.
>>
>> Any way of estimating how much the value of the land has
>> increased?
>>
>> I wonder also whether he has a way of measuring the soil
>> carbon content -
>> whether he can see any new growth of bacteria and fungus. Does
>> the soil look
>> and feel a good bit different?
>>
>> Thanks for a very helpful report.
>>
>> Ron
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jon C. Frank
>> To: Terrapreta
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 1:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>
>>
>> One additional point. We have a customer who has access to
>> large quantities
>> of charcoal powder that was used by industry as a filtration
>> product for
>> syrup. This product has pyrogenic characteristics so is difficult
>> to market.
>>
>> To prove a point at how effective it is in soil restoration he
>> bought an
>> extremely sandy field on the river bottom of the Mississippi
>> River. He
>> applied 15-20 tons of this product per acre and plowed it into the
>> soil. He
>> saw tremendous visual difference in the plants and in the root
>> growth as
>> compared to his neighbor with whom he shared part of the pivot for
>> irrigation.
>> When looking at roots that encountered chunks of this charcoal
>> powder the
>> roots would explode with massive growth inside the chunk of
>> charcoal powder.
>>
>> The conclusion of this farmer was that adding large quantities
>> of charcoal
>> powder increased the need for nitrogen on corn. I suspect this
>> might also be
>> the case with biochar, at least in the first year after
>> application. I wonder
>> if biochar made from manure would significantly slow the release
>> of NPK as
>> compared to using the manure fresh. I believe so but have no data
>> to back up
>> my beliefs. Kind of hard to get bio charred manure around our
>> area. :)
>>
>> Jon C. Frank
>> www.aglabs.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
>> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org]On Behalf Of Adriana
>> Downie
>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:55 PM
>> To: 'James Oliver'; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>
>>
>> Hi James,
>>
>>
>>
>> It very much depends on the temperature and processing
>> conditions.
>> Generally the P and K will stay with the char, you will loose some
>> nitrogen
>> but if you keep the temperature below 400C you will keep a
>> significant amount
>> of it. The availability of the NPK in the char also changes
>> significantly with
>> process conditions.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Adriana Downie
>>
>> BEST Energies Australia
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: James Oliver [mailto:jwogdn at yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Monday, 10 September 2007 11:16 PM
>> To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> Subject: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>
>>
>>
>> I have seen discussion of turning manure into biochar. Is the
>> N-P-K
>> retained in the biochar if manure is used as feed stock?
>>
>>
>>
>> JW
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -------
>>
>> Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life,
>> your story.
>> Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:11:05 -0400
>> From: Gerald Van Koeverden <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>> To: bhans at earthmimic.com
>> Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> Message-ID: <A4866D01-FCF5-4676-92BB-E9C76BA23BAA at yahoo.ca>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Short-term perhaps, but if those sugars provide the initial impetus
>> for such mircoflora to throughly colonize those charcoal particles,
>> then very good things could result...?? All soil scientists know
>> that 200,000,000 organisms live in a cubic centimeter of fertile
>> soil, but none of them really understand the dynamics of their
>> nutrient relationships...its way too complicated and thus rather
>> unpredictable.
>>
>> gerald
>>
>>
>> On 11-Sep-07, at 6:00 PM, Brian Hans wrote:
>>
>>> Sugar is the energy currency of soil flora. This makes sense
>>> because autotrophs utilize the sun and ofc...its dark down there so
>>> its not like they can fix their own energy from the sun. I would
>>> also suspect what PurNrg is implying...that residual sugars
>>> increase soil flora but only as a temp. shot in the arm. This is
>>> only a short term shot and not a long term affect.
>>>
>>> Brian Hans
>>>
>>> PurNrg at aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>> In a message dated 9/11/07 5:07:24 PM, jon.frank at aglabs.com writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The only thing he spread was charcoal that had syrup filtered
>>>> through it.
>>>
>>>
>>> This would lead me to wonder whether there was not a lot of
>>> residual sugar in the charcoal from said syrup, which would
>>> definitely be a different thing than JUST charcoal. As we've read
>>> earlier in this discussion, the sugar promotes a massive, temporary
>>> bloom all all sorts of soil critters. This bloom and it's
>>> associated activities could well be responsible for using up easily
>>> available soil nutrients, making them less available to plants in
>>> an immediate sense. Then, when the sugar has been consumed, there
>>> is the die off of many of the extra critters and their
>>> decomposition releases all those nutrients again in a form readily
>>> available to the plants.
>>>
>>> Peter :-)>
>>>
>>>
>>> **************************************
>>> See what's new at http://www.aol.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Terrapreta mailing list
>>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>>> http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
>>> terrapreta_bioenergylists.org
>>> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
>>> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Terrapreta mailing list
>>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>>> http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
>>> terrapreta_bioenergylists.org
>>> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
>>> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:19:47 -0500
>> From: "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>> To: <bhans at earthmimic.com>, <Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> Message-ID: <AABDQQFEEAGEHVJS at smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi Brian & 'terrapreta' group,
>>
>> Yes, I have read too, that only the combination of fertilizer and
>> charcoal
>> increases yield. The benefit with the charcoal amendment in later
>> years,
>> appears to be because of its ability to help the soil retain the
>> nutrients it
>> has or is given better than without the charcoal. I think this is a
>> synergistic action between the charcoal in the soil and the soil
>> microorganisms inhabiting the soil. This facet of Terra Preta
>> soil is being
>> researched in several places, even by people in this group. It
>> needs further
>> verification (if it is indeed true) and more research in many more
>> different
>> types of soil.
>>
>> This is an important question for "Terra Preta Nova". The
>> positive answer
>> will bring a measurable benefit to those trying to sell or use
>> charcoal
>> amendments in soil for remediation of soil problems. There are
>> indications
>> that it is true; I believe Christoph Steiner's paper all but said
>> that
>> charcoal increased the soils ability to hold nutrients better
>> after four
>> years. I believe Adriana from BEST has also said very recently,
>> that their
>> research has indicated this, too. The mere existence of still
>> fertile soils
>> in the Amazon rain basin, some 2500 years after they were
>> initially amended
>> with charcoal speaks to the possibility that charcoal brings
>> "nutritive
>> resilience" to soils.
>>
>> Some in here may not be from Missouri, but the "Show Me" about
>> what charcoal
>> can really do for soil in the out years is still cooking.
>> I think Christelle Braun's idea about the TP database could well
>> help bring
>> this information to the requesters here, much faster than the two
>> years or so
>> that it has taken me to glean this from my reading.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> SKB
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Brian Hans<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com>
>> To:
>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 4:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>
>>
>> Group,
>>
>> The gov. doesnt regulate charcoal at all as far as I see. Im
>> curious how
>> they would classify the char when its an industrial waste tho...
>>
>> Specifically to the N issue. Simply, more corn = more fixed N.
>> Additionally,
>> more soil biomass = more fixed N. Just by adding char, we cannot
>> assume that N
>> magically appears. The reason we need to add N to a field of
>> char'ed soil is
>> that growth is going to increase and that will need more N to
>> facilitate that
>> increased biomass production.
>>
>> Im not sure why char will specifically increase N fixing bac's,
>> to assume
>> that is the case is wild speculation that is likely unfounded. In
>> a lit.
>> search...char and fertilizer additions always go hand in hand for
>> the reasons
>> I stated above. Infact the lit. is ripe with reports that only the
>> combo of
>> ferts AND char yield an increase in yields.
>>
>> A point specifically to Adriana, you mentioned that your char
>> "if you keep
>> the temperature below 400C you will keep a significant amount of it
>> [Nitrogen]" Im curious as to what state that N is in? Im having
>> a hard time
>> understanding how much of the N doesnt oxydize at that temp. In this
>> case...even tho the char may be holding some of the N...its in an
>> NOx state
>> and thus useless to the plant.
>>
>> Brian Hans
>>
>>
>> "Jon C. Frank" <jon.frank at aglabs.com> wrote:
>> Hi Gerrit,
>>
>> I don't think the government was involved at all. The only
>> thing he
>> spread was charcoal that had syrup filtered through it. It was
>> spread with a
>> regular manure spreader.
>>
>> I agree with your thoughts on nitrogen. Additionally the
>> carbon could
>> provide room and board to N-fixing bacteria and could possibly
>> reduce the need
>> even further. But on corn I would be very careful reducing the N
>> too far or
>> it could lead to poor yield.
>>
>> Jon
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gerald Van Koeverden [mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:00 PM
>> To: Jon C. Frank
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>
>>
>> Jon,
>>
>>
>> I'm curious how your client was able to spread this
>> industrial waste on
>> his soil. Did he have to get some kind of governmental clearance
>> first? Or
>> has this material been classified as safe for farmland? I want to
>> know just
>> in case I can find similar waste here. I would love to spread it
>> on my land.
>>
>>
>> Gerrit
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11-Sep-07, at 3:19 PM, Jon C. Frank wrote:
>>
>>
>> One additional point. We have a customer who has access
>> to large
>> quantities of charcoal powder that was used by industry as a
>> filtration
>> product for syrup. This product has pyrogenic characteristics so
>> is difficult
>> to market.
>>
>> To prove a point at how effective it is in soil
>> restoration he bought
>> an extremely sandy field on the river bottom of the Mississippi
>> River. He
>> applied 15-20 tons of this product per acre and plowed it into the
>> soil. He
>> saw tremendous visual difference in the plants and in the root
>> growth as
>> compared to his neighbor with whom he shared part of the pivot for
>> irrigation.
>> When looking at roots that encountered chunks of this charcoal
>> powder the
>> roots would explode with massive growth inside the chunk of
>> charcoal powder.
>>
>> The conclusion of this farmer was that adding large
>> quantities of
>> charcoal powder increased the need for nitrogen on corn. I
>> suspect this might
>> also be the case with biochar, at least in the first year after
>> application.
>> I wonder if biochar made from manure would significantly slow the
>> release of
>> NPK as compared to using the manure fresh. I believe so but have
>> no data to
>> back up my beliefs. Kind of hard to get bio charred manure around
>> our area.
>> :)
>>
>> Jon C. Frank
>> www.aglabs.com<http://www.aglabs.com/>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
>> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta-
>> bounces at bioene
>> rgylists.org>]On Behalf Of Adriana Downie
>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:55 PM
>> To: 'James Oliver';
>> terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>
>>
>> Hi James,
>> It very much depends on the temperature and processing
>> conditions.
>> Generally the P and K will stay with the char, you will loose some
>> nitrogen
>> but if you keep the temperature below 400C you will keep a
>> significant amount
>> of it. The availability of the NPK in the char also changes
>> significantly with
>> process conditions.
>> Regards,
>> Adriana Downie
>> BEST Energies Australia
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: James Oliver
>> [mailto:jwogdn at yahoo.com<mailto:jwogdn at yahoo.com>]
>> Sent: Monday, 10 September 2007 11:16 PM
>> To:
>> terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>> I have seen discussion of turning manure into biochar.
>> Is the N-P-K
>> retained in the biochar if manure is used as feed stock?
>> JW
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>
>> Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their
>> life, your
>> story.
>> Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48224/*http:/sims.yahoo.com/>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Terrapreta mailing list
>>
>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
>> terrapreta_bioenergylists.org<http:
>> //bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/terrapreta_bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org<http://
>> terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/>
>> http://info.bioenergylists.org<http://
>> info.bioenergylists.org/>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Terrapreta mailing list
>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
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>> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
>> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Terrapreta mailing list
>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
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>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:41:16 -0500
>> From: "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>> To: <bhans at earthmimic.com>, <Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> Message-ID: <AABDQQGNNA6P3WZA at smtpout05.dca.untd.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi Brian,
>>
>> Sugar alone can bloom the soil micro-flora. There is a lab test,
>> used by soil
>> science researchers that makes use of this. It increases soil
>> "respiration"
>> rates, which is an indication of increased living microorganism
>> activity. Dr.
>> A.D. Karve (in this group), from India, has claimed that this is very
>> important. Even to the point where "sugar" is the sole amendment, no
>> fertilizers required. But, sugar with charcoal? Now that could be a
>> different, perhaps more long-lived, effect than charcoal alone.
>> Maybe the
>> charcoal can buffer the soil pH, increasing Cation Exchange
>> Capacity? Maybe
>> the carbon in the charcoal can catalyze the decomposition of
>> organic matter
>> into plant available nutrients? Maybe the porous nature of the
>> charcoal holds
>> more water and provides a "safe haven" for soil microorganisms to
>> grow into
>> and stay, set up shop as it were, etc?
>>
>> These are all, I believe, very "fertile groud" (pun intended) for
>> Terra Preta
>> research. It does look promising, so far. So, we just need to
>> get more
>> people excited about doing this kind of research.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> SKB
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Brian Hans<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com>
>> To:
>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 5:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>
>>
>> Sugar is the energy currency of soil flora. This makes sense
>> because
>> autotrophs utilize the sun and ofc...its dark down there so its
>> not like they
>> can fix their own energy from the sun. I would also suspect what
>> PurNrg is
>> implying...that residual sugars increase soil flora but only as a
>> temp. shot
>> in the arm. This is only a short term shot and not a long term
>> affect.
>>
>> Brian Hans
>>
>> PurNrg at aol.com wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 9/11/07 5:07:24 PM, jon.frank at aglabs.com
>> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> The only thing he spread was charcoal that had syrup
>> filtered through
>> it.
>>
>>
>>
>> This would lead me to wonder whether there was not a lot of
>> residual sugar
>> in the charcoal from said syrup, which would definitely be a
>> different thing
>> than JUST charcoal. As we've read earlier in this discussion, the
>> sugar
>> promotes a massive, temporary bloom all all sorts of soil
>> critters. This bloom
>> and it's associated activities could well be responsible for using
>> up easily
>> available soil nutrients, making them less available to plants in
>> an immediate
>> sense. Then, when the sugar has been consumed, there is the die
>> off of many of
>> the extra critters and their decomposition releases all those
>> nutrients again
>> in a form readily available to the plants.
>>
>> Peter :-)>
>>
>>
>> **************************************
>> See what's new at http://www.aol.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Terrapreta mailing list
>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
>> terrapreta_bioenergylists.org
>> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
>> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Terrapreta mailing list
>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
>> terrapreta_bioenergylists.org
>> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:13:27 -0500
>> From: "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>> To: <bhans at earthmimic.com>, "Gerald Van Koeverden" <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
>> Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> Message-ID: <AABDQQJJZAQA8QUA at smtp04.lax.untd.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi Gerrit,
>>
>> Both soil microorganisms and plants grow better in "fertile"
>> soil. It does
>> not appear that they "compete" for the same things in the soil,
>> though. How
>> could they? Microorganisms would always win out (I would think,
>> being closer
>> to the feast) and plants would not survive in the soil (starvation
>> brought on
>> by 200,000,000 "wee beasties" per centimeter gobbling all the eats).
>>
>> It has been mentioned several times in these past few posts and I
>> think it was
>> well known before any of us said this, that microorganisms thrive on
>> carbohydrates (which plants can provide). Also, the
>> microorganisms deliver to
>> the roots of the plants, those nutrients that the plants need to
>> survive.
>>
>> It has been mentioned by others on this list before, too, that
>> there are
>> "symbiotic" relationships between plants growing in soil and soil
>> microorganisms in that soil, where soil microorganisms provide
>> nutrients for
>> plants in exchange for a little sugar (e.g. Vesicular-arbuscular
>> mycorrhizal
>> (VAM) fungi). Dr. Karve, again, has also mentioned these symbiotic
>> relationships; plants that exude sugar from their roots and leaf
>> tips, to
>> "feed" the soil microbes in the soil below them.
>>
>> Brian Hans said "it's dark down there". Well, he's right. Soil
>> microbes do
>> not photosynthesize carbohydrates because they are not bathed in
>> sunlight.
>> They cannot make their own nutrition from plant nutrients (C
>> HOPKINS CaF?
>> Mgr). Likewise, terrestrial plants do not decompose soil organic
>> matter
>> themselves and make the nutrients in the soil available to
>> themselves. Plants
>> use sunlight to make sugars and cellulose from carbondioxide and
>> water. Soil
>> microbes decompose SOM and they do this the entire time they live
>> in soil.
>>
>> Soil is an ECOSYSTEM. No single type of organism can survive
>> alone for any
>> length of time, without there being others there, too, to help.
>>
>> Industrial Agriculture has ignored this graceful, well-developed,
>> symbiosis
>> between soil and plants. All we have ever done with industrial
>> fertilizers is
>> feed the nutrients to the plants and ignore the soil's living
>> parts. This has
>> to stop! We are killing the organisms living in and on
>> agricultural soil
>> around the planet from the ground up. We continue to ignore soil
>> at our
>> greatest peril.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> SKB
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Gerald Van Koeverden<mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
>> To: bhans at earthmimic.com<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com>
>> Cc:
>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 5:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>
>>
>> Short-term perhaps, but if those sugars provide the initial
>> impetus for such
>> mircoflora to throughly colonize those charcoal particles, then
>> very good
>> things could result...?? All soil scientists know that
>> 200,000,000 organisms
>> live in a cubic centimeter of fertile soil, but none of them
>> really understand
>> the dynamics of their nutrient relationships...its way too
>> complicated and
>> thus rather unpredictable.
>>
>>
>> gerald
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11-Sep-07, at 6:00 PM, Brian Hans wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sugar is the energy currency of soil flora. This makes sense
>> because
>> autotrophs utilize the sun and ofc...its dark down there so its
>> not like they
>> can fix their own energy from the sun. I would also suspect what
>> PurNrg is
>> implying...that residual sugars increase soil flora but only as a
>> temp. shot
>> in the arm. This is only a short term shot and not a long term
>> affect.
>>
>> Brian Hans
>>
>> PurNrg at aol.com<mailto:PurNrg at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 9/11/07 5:07:24 PM,
>> jon.frank at aglabs.com<mailto:jon.frank at aglabs.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> The only thing he spread was charcoal that had syrup
>> filtered through
>> it.
>>
>>
>>
>> This would lead me to wonder whether there was not a lot of
>> residual
>> sugar in the charcoal from said syrup, which would definitely be a
>> different
>> thing than JUST charcoal. As we've read earlier in this
>> discussion, the sugar
>> promotes a massive, temporary bloom all all sorts of soil
>> critters. This bloom
>> and it's associated activities could well be responsible for using
>> up easily
>> available soil nutrients, making them less available to plants in
>> an immediate
>> sense. Then, when the sugar has been consumed, there is the die
>> off of many of
>> the extra critters and their decomposition releases all those
>> nutrients again
>> in a form readily available to the plants.
>>
>> Peter :-)>
>>
>>
>> **************************************
>> See what's new at http://www.aol.com<http://www.aol.com/>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Terrapreta mailing list
>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:18:22 -0300
>> From: Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>> To: "Jon C. Frank" <jon.frank at aglabs.com>
>> Cc: Terrapreta <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> Message-ID: <46E7223E.50109 at ca.inter.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Dear Jon
>>
>> It might be that the charcoal per se had a minor role in the flush of
>> growth... is it possible that impurities that were filtered from the
>> syrup acted as plant nutrients? Is it possible that residual sugar on
>> the syrup gave a boost to soil bacteria, as is advocated by AD Karve?
>>
>> Jon C. Frank wrote:
>>> Hi Gerrit,
>>>
>>> I don't think the government was involved at all. The only thing he
>>> spread was charcoal that had syrup filtered through it. It was
>>> spread
>>> with a regular manure spreader.
>>>
>>> I agree with your thoughts on nitrogen. Additionally the carbon
>>> could
>>> provide room and board to N-fixing bacteria and could possibly
>>> reduce
>>> the need even further. But on corn I would be very careful
>>> reducing the
>>> N too far or it could lead to poor yield.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> *From:* Gerald Van Koeverden [mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:00 PM
>>> *To:* Jon C. Frank
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>>
>>> Jon,
>>>
>>> I'm curious how your client was able to spread this
>>> industrial waste
>>> on his soil. Did he have to get some kind of governmental
>>> clearance
>>> first? Or has this material been classified as safe for
>>> farmland?
>>> I want to know just in case I can find similar waste here. I
>>> would
>>> love to spread it on my land.
>>>
>>> Gerrit
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11-Sep-07, at 3:19 PM, Jon C. Frank wrote:
>>>
>>>> One additional point. We have a customer who has access to
>>>> large
>>>> quantities of charcoal powder that was used by industry as a
>>>> filtration product for syrup. This product has pyrogenic
>>>> characteristics so is difficult to market.
>>>>
>>>> To prove a point at how effective it is in soil restoration he
>>>> bought an extremely sandy field on the river bottom of the
>>>> Mississippi River. He applied 15-20 tons of this product per
>>>> acre and plowed it into the soil. He saw tremendous visual
>>>> difference in the plants and in the root growth as compared
>>>> to his
>>>> neighbor with whom he shared part of the pivot for irrigation.
>>>> When looking at roots that encountered chunks of this charcoal
>>>> powder the roots would explode with massive growth inside the
>>>> chunk of charcoal powder.
>>>>
>>>> The conclusion of this farmer was that adding large
>>>> quantities of
>>>> charcoal powder increased the need for nitrogen on corn. I
>>>> suspect this might also be the case with biochar, at least
>>>> in the
>>>> first year after application. I wonder if biochar made from
>>>> manure would significantly slow the release of NPK as
>>>> compared to
>>>> using the manure fresh. I believe so but have no data to
>>>> back up
>>>> my beliefs. Kind of hard to get bio charred manure around our
>>>> area. :)
>>>>
>>>> Jon C. Frank
>>>> www.aglabs.com <http://www.aglabs.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> *From:* terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
>>>> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org]*On Behalf Of
>>>> *Adriana Downie
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, September 10, 2007 5:55 PM
>>>> *To:* 'James Oliver'; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>>>> <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>>>
>>>> Hi James,
>>>>
>>>> It very much depends on the temperature and processing
>>>> conditions. Generally the P and K will stay with the
>>>> char, you
>>>> will loose some nitrogen but if you keep the temperature
>>>> below
>>>> 400C you will keep a significant amount of it. The
>>>> availability of the NPK in the char also changes
>>>> significantly
>>>> with process conditions.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Adriana Downie
>>>>
>>>> BEST Energies Australia
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> *From:* James Oliver [mailto:jwogdn at yahoo.com]
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, 10 September 2007 11:16 PM
>>>> *To:* terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>>>> <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>>>> *Subject:* [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>>>
>>>> I have seen discussion of turning manure into biochar.
>>>> Is the
>>>> N-P-K retained in the biochar if manure is used as feed
>>>> stock?
>>>>
>>>> JW
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>> Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life,
>>>> your story.
>>>> Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48224/*http:/sims.yahoo.com/>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Terrapreta mailing list
>>>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>>>> <mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>>>> http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
>>>> terrapreta_bioenergylists.org
>>>> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
>>>> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Terrapreta mailing list
>>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>>> http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
>>> terrapreta_bioenergylists.org
>>> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
>>> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:55:17 +1200
>> From: "Nat Tuivavalagi" <ntuivavalagi at cmi.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>> To: "'Sean K. Barry'" <sean.barry at juno.com>, <bhans at earthmimic.com>,
>> "'Gerald Van Koeverden'" <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
>> Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> Message-ID: <003701c7f4cf$348f4280$b30010ac at cmi.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi SKB,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for sharing.
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree that competition between microorganism and plants is not
>> usually
>> obvious. However, this competition could be readily seen when we
>> add ?poor?
>> (actually low C/N) organic matter (eg sawdust) to our soil/crop.
>> Instead of
>> becoming green and healthy, the crop actually becomes yellowish
>> and sickly ?
>> as amount of N in soil/organic-matter is not adequate for both
>> microorganism
>> and crop. Yes the microorganisms win (at least at the
>> beginning). However,
>> the microorganisms will die out and the crop will benefit from
>> these dead
>> and decaying materials ? hence the yellowish-ness is only temporary.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Nat
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
>> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Sean
>> K. Barry
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:13 AM
>> To: bhans at earthmimic.com; Gerald Van Koeverden
>> Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Gerrit,
>>
>>
>>
>> Both soil microorganisms and plants grow better in "fertile"
>> soil. It does
>> not appear that they "compete" for the same things in the soil,
>> though. How
>> could they? Microorganisms would always win out (I would think,
>> being
>> closer to the feast) and plants would not survive in the soil
>> (starvation
>> brought on by 200,000,000 "wee beasties" per centimeter gobbling
>> all the
>> eats).
>>
>>
>>
>> It has been mentioned several times in these past few posts and I
>> think it
>> was well known before any of us said this, that microorganisms
>> thrive on
>> carbohydrates (which plants can provide). Also, the
>> microorganisms deliver
>> to the roots of the plants, those nutrients that the plants need
>> to survive.
>>
>>
>>
>> It has been mentioned by others on this list before, too, that
>> there are
>> "symbiotic" relationships between plants growing in soil and soil
>> microorganisms in that soil, where soil microorganisms provide
>> nutrients for
>> plants in exchange for a little sugar (e.g. Vesicular-arbuscular
>> mycorrhizal
>> (VAM) fungi). Dr. Karve, again, has also mentioned these symbiotic
>> relationships; plants that exude sugar from their roots and leaf
>> tips, to
>> "feed" the soil microbes in the soil below them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian Hans said "it's dark down there". Well, he's right. Soil
>> microbes do
>> not photosynthesize carbohydrates because they are not bathed in
>> sunlight.
>> They cannot make their own nutrition from plant nutrients (C
>> HOPKINS CaF?
>> Mgr). Likewise, terrestrial plants do not decompose soil organic
>> matter
>> themselves and make the nutrients in the soil available to
>> themselves.
>> Plants use sunlight to make sugars and cellulose from
>> carbondioxide and
>> water. Soil microbes decompose SOM and they do this the entire
>> time they
>> live in soil.
>>
>>
>>
>> Soil is an ECOSYSTEM. No single type of organism can survive
>> alone for any
>> length of time, without there being others there, too, to help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Industrial Agriculture has ignored this graceful, well-developed,
>> symbiosis
>> between soil and plants. All we have ever done with industrial
>> fertilizers
>> is feed the nutrients to the plants and ignore the soil's living
>> parts.
>> This has to stop! We are killing the organisms living in and on
>> agricultural soil around the planet from the ground up. We
>> continue to
>> ignore soil at our greatest peril.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> SKB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Gerald <mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca> Van Koeverden
>>
>> To: bhans at earthmimic.com
>>
>> Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 5:11 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>
>>
>>
>> Short-term perhaps, but if those sugars provide the initial
>> impetus for such
>> mircoflora to throughly colonize those charcoal particles, then
>> very good
>> things could result...?? All soil scientists know that 200,000,000
>> organisms live in a cubic centimeter of fertile soil, but none of
>> them
>> really understand the dynamics of their nutrient
>> relationships...its way too
>> complicated and thus rather unpredictable.
>>
>>
>>
>> gerald
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11-Sep-07, at 6:00 PM, Brian Hans wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sugar is the energy currency of soil flora. This makes sense because
>> autotrophs utilize the sun and ofc...its dark down there so its
>> not like
>> they can fix their own energy from the sun. I would also suspect
>> what PurNrg
>> is implying...that residual sugars increase soil flora but only as
>> a temp.
>> shot in the arm. This is only a short term shot and not a long
>> term affect.
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian Hans
>>
>> PurNrg at aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 9/11/07 5:07:24 PM, jon.frank at aglabs.com writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The only thing he spread was charcoal that had syrup filtered
>> through it.
>>
>>
>>
>> This would lead me to wonder whether there was not a lot of
>> residual sugar
>> in the charcoal from said syrup, which would definitely be a
>> different thing
>> than JUST charcoal. As we've read earlier in this discussion, the
>> sugar
>> promotes a massive, temporary bloom all all sorts of soil
>> critters. This
>> bloom and it's associated activities could well be responsible for
>> using up
>> easily available soil nutrients, making them less available to
>> plants in an
>> immediate sense. Then, when the sugar has been consumed, there is
>> the die
>> off of many of the extra critters and their decomposition releases
>> all those
>> nutrients again in a form readily available to the plants.
>>
>> Peter :-)>
>>
>>
>> **************************************
>> See what's new at http://www.aol.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Terrapreta mailing list
>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
>> terrapreta_bioenergylists.org
>> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
>> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Terrapreta mailing list
>>
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>>
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>> terrapreta_bioenergylists.org
>>
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>>
>> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>>
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