[Terrapreta] Pure Organics Vs. Biological Agriculture

[Kevin Chisholm]

Dear Edward

Edward Someus wrote:
> Dear Kevin,
>  
> Just short reflection on your notice ".............., but nobody knows 
> if adding char to soil is economic, .............."
>  
> _*Here you have an European group, who is clearly stating and 
> confirming that adding char to soil is economic for low input and/or 
> biological cultivation, resulting high* _*_quality product output, 
> directed to  Consumers with high awareness._*

I am very pleased to hear that you have been able to put together a 
justification for producing char for Terra Preta applications! I can 
appreciate that there are commercial considerations, but what can you 
tell us about the following:

1: What crops grow best with carbon additions? Are there some crops that 
don't respond well to char additions?

2: What would be a typical increase in yield with char additions to the 
soil? Is there any significant difference in crop quality, and if so, 
does this improved quality contribute significantly to financial 
justification for char additions?

3: Approximately how many tonnes of char would be applied per hectare 
for such typical crops?

4: What is the cost per tonne for char used in these studies?

5: Could you generally describe the properties of a "good char" for 
Terra Preta?

6: What other soil additives are required, ie, fertilizer, organic 
matter, dolomitic lime, etc?

7: Could you please comment on the effectiveness of char additions to 
soils in temperate climates?

Anything else you could tell us would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes,

Kevin

>  
> Our work field is from applied science to industrial scale, including 
> development, design and implementation of large bio-carbon industrial 
> systems, including extensive soil testing in different soil and climatic 
> conditions, which sooner or later will open the way for an 
> industrialized Terra Preta production and market segmentation in the EU 
> and USA. We also put in extensive efforts to get proper scientific 
> understanding carbon in soil, so we united the European science in this 
> question, from The Netherlands, Germany, UK, Spain, Italy, Israel, 
> Hungary, Sweden in the European Union FP6 project. In a new 8 million 
> Euro budget frame soil carbon programme pre proposal we expanded  our 
> ongoing works to all European 27 European countries.
>  
>  
> If you look at TP from conventional high input farming point of view 
> where quantity production is the goal for no/low awareness consumers, 
> than you may find that TP is slow action with no immediate term addon 
> economy.  But looking at the market tendencies, this is not the case, as 
> Consumers are more aware of food quality now than 20 years ago, at least 
> in Europe and the US.
>  
>  
> WE work for all European projects (for the European Union FOOD SAFETY 
> COMMISSION), in which specific carbonized plant biochar and animal bone 
> charcoal are adapted into different soil cultivation, in different 
> climates in different countries, and combined with novel solid state 
> fermentation and formulation. The many years development programme is in 
> matured phase and we will make dissemination  2008.   
> Www.terrenum.net/protector <http://www.terrenum.net/protector>
>  
>  
> For your question ... " How should the char be made"..... Pls visit 
> www.terrenum.net/ <http://www.terrenum.net/>
> Right now I am designing and building an 30,000 t/year capacity char 
> plant in US Indiana, although this for plant is for Clean Coal energy 
> not for agro soil application.
>  
>  
>  
> 
> Sincerely yours: Edward Someus (environmental engineer)
> Terra Humana Clean Technology Engineering Ltd.
> (ISO 9001 and ISO 14001 certified organization for scientific research, 
> technical development and industrial performance engineering design of 
> agro-biotechnological and pyrolysis methods, apparatus and applications)
> 
> ADDRESS: H-1222 Budapest, Szechenyi 59, Hungary
> TEL handy:  +(36-20) 201 7557
> TEL / FAX:   +(36-1) 424 0224
> TEL SKYPE phone via computer:  Edward Someus
> WEB:   www.terrenum.net <http://www.terrenum.net/>
> /-------Original Message-------/
>  
> /*From:*/ Kevin Chisholm <mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> /*Date:*/ 2007.09.19. 2:26:49
> /*To:*/ Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> /*Cc:*/ Jon C. Frank <mailto:jon.frank at aglabs.com>;  Terrapreta 
> <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> /*Subject:*/ Re: [Terrapreta] Pure Organics Vs. Biological Agriculture
>  
> Dear Sean
>  
> As far as I can see, all the List Members are "Terra Preta
> Johhnie-Come-Latelys". I don't know of anyone on the List who grew up on
> a Farm that employed Terra Preta. I think we all see the clear benefit
> of TP for carbon sequestration. Correct me if I am wrong, but nobody
> knows if adding char to soil is economic, or if they do, they aren't
> saying. Alot of ppl say TP is a fabulous growing medium but it would be
> nice to see some test results that digitized the generalities.
>  
> We are all rooting for TP. However, growing on TP soils is an art at
> this stage, not a science. We don't know very much about Terra Preta...
>  
> * What are the types of soils that would benefit from conversion to TP soil?
> * How much char should be added to various types of soil?
> * What is the nature and quantity of organic matter additions to the soil?
> * What size of char should be employed?
> * How should the char be made?
> * What should be added to the TP plot each year, to maintain the TP at
> peak capability?
> * What crops do well on TP, and what crops do not justify the extra cost
> of making TP?
> * ...etc...
>  
> Jon seems to be able to tell people how to grow High Brix crops.  If I
> follow his recommended procedures, I should be able to duplicate his
> results. If I can then that is science.  We need TP to be brought to
> this level of science. It is not at all helpful to say that "...some
> people in Brazil has been working a TP plot for 500 years, and it works
> for them...". We need Jon's kind of science before TP will take off and
> become the widely employed success we all want it to be.
>  
> Best wishes,
>  
> Kevin
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Sean K. Barry wrote:
>  > Hi Kevin,
>  >
>  > Not by tests I have done.  Christoph Steiner and Johannes Lehmann are
>  > the only people I have heard of who have actually done any tests in
>  > actual Terra Preta soils.
>  >
>  > The people who live in Brazil, the families who have farmed land with
>  > Terra Preta soil on it for 500+ years generation after generation, will
>  > attest to it, though.  Some grow world record productive papaya and
>  > mango groves.  They do not buy or use industrial fertilizers.  They,
>  > like the generations of ancestors before them, put back into the soil,
>  > those parts of the harvest, which are not eaten.  They value the land
>  > for its fertility.  They guard it closely.  There are laws that prohibit
>  > "mining" and "selling" TP soil.  It is truly valuable land for them
>  > because of it productivity.  They are not corporate entities, with huge
>  > capital assets, and armies of PR people, making things sound so good,
>  > that you can hardly believe it.  They are truck farmers, peasant
>  > farmers.  They do what they do and it works for them.  That is all the
>  > evidence they need.
>  >
>  > I grant you that most of these people are not scientists and they could
>  > not tell you why the TP soil they live on and grow crops in can do what
>  > it does.  They just know from experience over their lifetime and the
>  > lifetimes of the generations before them that TP soil provides them a
>  > bounty for the growth of crops.  Some have documented ownership and
>  > cultivation for 500+ years.
>  >
>  > I, like many, including the people who use TP soil, do not know what the
>  > "recipe" is.  From what I have read, the cultivation practice that makes
>  > most sense to me, for maintaining the soil fertility under continuous
>  > cultivation, is that they "return" to the soil all of the plant wastes
>  > from the harvest.  They compost the food wastes back into the soil,
>  > also.  My belief is that the charcoal carbon in the soil pays large
>  > dividends for their deposits.  They give back the plant nutrients that
>  > they do not use and the soil/micro-organism ecology in the soil gives it
>  > to the plants in their next crop.
>  >
>  > I do not know that anyone has come up with a definitive, scientifically
>  > arrived at understanding as to how it all works.  It is from generations
>  > of experience that they "know" that it works.  They might not know "why"
>  > or "how" it works, but they will protect it as an asset, nonetheless.
>  > They do not abandon it because they do not know how it works.
>  >
>  > So, I guess I am saying its anecdotal.  This is very like what Dr. A.D.
>  > Karve says.  He has hypothesis about why what he is doing works.  He is
>  > trying to develop theories as to "why" and "how".  He has many village
>  > farmers that rely on his methods, practice his methods, and believe that
>  > "it works", because it does for them.  Maybe, someday, he will be able
>  > to show (the damned nit-picking (I'm kidding)) scientists why.
>  >
>  > I would say, though (and you have pointed this out yourself recently),
>  > there are two camps in here about Terra Preta; 1) those that want it for
>  > its enhanced agricultural benefit, and 2) those that want this for
>  > carbon sequestration.
>  >
>  > I think 1) is possible and hard to know why.  I think 2) is obvious and
>  > absolutely clear by virtue of the mere existence of 2500+ year old
>  > charcoal carbon in the Amazon rainforest.  It was put there by people
>  > long ago.  It is still there.  It has been sequestered for 2500+ years
>  > ... No doubt about it (not in my mind).  This is like 15 times the
>  > duration of our entire Industrial Revolution and 15 times the amount of
>  > time that it has taken humankind to pump all the 300 million year old
>  > fossil fuel carbon into the atmosphere!  Clearly, we can sequester
>  > carbon by putting charcoal carbon into the soil, don't you think?
>  >
>  > Regards,
>  >
>  > SKB
>  >
>  >     ----- Original Message -----
>  >     *From:* Kevin Chisholm <mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
>  >     *To:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
>  >     *Cc:* Terrapreta <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ; Jon C.
>  >     Frank <mailto:jon.frank at aglabs.com>
>  >     *Sent:* Tuesday, September 18, 2007 5:40 PM
>  >     *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] Pure Organics Vs. Biological Agriculture
>  >
>  >     Dear Sean
>  >
>  >     Most of your posting makes sense, but you lose me here..
>  >
>  >     Sean K. Barry wrote:
>  >      > Hi Jon,
>  >      >
>  >     ...del...
>  >
>  >        Terra Preta is vastly fertile soil,
>  >      > with fertility that HAS lasted for 500+ years, under continuous
>  >      > cultivation, in some places.  It already works to improve crop
>  >      > productivity.
>  >
>  >     Would you have any test results you could refer us to, to support 
> these
>  >     statements?
>  >
>  >     You may wish to start with a "recipe" for Terra Preta, and a
>  >     description
>  >     of the cultivation practices that have been employed for the past
>  >     500 years.
>  >
>  >     Best wishes,
>  >
>  >     Kevin
>  >
>  >
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Terrapreta mailing list
> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org <mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>  
> .
>  
> 		
>