[Terrapreta] The Reason for Pottery Shards in Terra Preta. Re: Char and compost ( was Char made made under pressurized conditions? )

[lou gold]

Greg,

Do we know if the terra preta sites found in the central Amazon also reveal
a layering of pottery and soil?  The need to build up mounds or islands was
in the Bolivian flood plain. The layering architecture might have designed
to prevent fast erosion -- a layer of waste covered by a layer of pottery.

In the central Amazon sites I don't believe there would have been a need for
"mounds." There's plenty of non-flooding "upland." If the layering is not
found in this terrain, it would strongly suggest that it was
"architectural", helping the building of stable mounds in the flood plain.



On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Greg and April <gregandapril at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> You pose some very interesting possibilities.
>
> OTOH, I also see some possable flaws.
>
> I'll interspaced my comments between the ************** .
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> To: "Saibhaskar Nakka" <saibhaskarnakka at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Greg and April" <gregandapril at earthlink.net>;
> <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>; <arclein at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 9:29
> Subject: The Reason for Pottery Shards in Terra Preta. Re: [Terrapreta]
> Char
> and compost ( was Char made made under pressurized conditions? )
>
>
> > Dear Dr Reddy
> >
> > I would pose for your consideration the following:
> > * The pottery chards in Brazilian Terra Preta come from containers that
> > were used to store urine. *
> >
> > This would make great sense,  for the following reasons:
> >
> >
> >
> > 1: People find odors from decomposition of urine and feces unpleasant,
> and
> > will go to great lengths to dispose of these wastes at some distance
> from
> > their living quarters.
>
> *********************
>
> Yes and no.
>
> Alot of it depends on the culture.    Take Midievil Europe, while they
> commonly used a chamber pot, while inside, they quite often just dumped it
> out the nearest window into the street.    Garderobe (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garderobe ) were simple closets that quite
> often let the waste out of the castle walls into piles that were sometimes
> big enough, that permited entry into the castle through the garterobe - a
> few castles were lost this way.
>
> **********************
>
> >
> > 2: In a Primitive Society, in the tropics, people would not want to go
> > outside after dark to urinate and defecate, simply because of the
> presence
> > of poisonous snakes, poisonous insects, and harmful animals.
>
> **********************
>
> That is assuming that they were primitives.    Reading the book 1491, and
> looking at the level of culture necessary to raise the cities found in
> Central and South America, one has to believe that they had a fairly
> sophisticated level of culture.    While it is true that a in small
> village
> of 3-4 families, there might be some hesitancy to venture out after dark,
> in
> anything larger, animals tend to stay away from man and the closer you get
> the center of town, the less likely you are to find these mysteries of the
> dark.    Please remember that we have documentation that ancient cultures
> of
> South and Central America, were completely aware of the night sky - thus
> they had to be out after dark.
>
> The belief that they were primitives also tends to go against the
> reasoning
> of #1, as only a culture that has advanced enough will understand, that
> there is something wrong with keeping human waste near by ( even enough to
> a
> level of making human waste a taboo ).
>
> *****************************
>
> >
> > 3: They had the technology to make pottery jars and containers.
> >
> > 4: It would be very simple and convenient to use some of these pottery
> > containers as "Chamber Pots" for use inside the home at night.
> >
>
> ******************************
>
> I believe that #3 and #4 also argues against the belief that they were
> primitives that were scared of the dark and what might be in it.
>  Chamber
> pots are a convenience against going down to the local slop hole/latrine.
> You have to be reasionably rich in order to keep buying ceramic pots that
> soone or later was going to break.
>
> ******************************
>
> > 5: It would be very logical and convenient to have a larger pottery
> > container outside the home for daily emptying of Chamber Pots into a
> > ""Slop Pail" or larger pottery equivalent, such as a "Slop Pot.".
>
> ********************************
>
> Such a pot, means that they had to be able to afford one - and that would
> require a greater expense and even higher level of technology to make it,
> than the small pots.
>
> ********************************
>
>
> >
> > 6: It would be very logical for the Home Owner to periodically empty the
> > Slop Jar at some distance from the home.
>
> *********************************
>
> By what means?    If it is much larger than the slop pots, it would
> require
> several people to move it, when full, and that means it has to be thicker
> /
> stronger in order to withstand not only the weight of the slop, but the
> stress of moving all that weight .
>
> *********************************
>
> >
> > 7: After one or two growing seasons, it would be very obvious that "the
> > grass was greener" and "things grew better" where Slop Jars had been
> > previously emptied.
> >
> > 8: Primitive people would see immediate benefit from having disposed of
> > their body wastes at a distance from their Homes, such immediate
> benefits
> > the lack of flies, insects,  and unpleasant odors.
>
> *************************
>
> I have to completely disagree with #7 and #8.
>
> Remember we are talking about places that has a fairly long rainy season
> and
> the river(s) flood most everything that isn't above the high water mark (
> were the people lived ).    Given the soil conditions, all the rain, and
> the
> flooding, the waste would be washed away in the first year - except where
> unusual conditions applied ( like if it was dumped above the high water
> mark - I will of this further below ).
>
> ***************************
>
> >
> > 9: Porous pottery jars would be an excellent container for such body
> > wastes, in that the evaporation by the leakage water would tend to cool
> > the jars, extending the time the wastes could be stored before they
> became
> > particularily offensive.
>
> ****************************
>
> This would apply only in the dry season - in the months of the rainy
> season,
> and immediately after when the humidity is fairly high little to no
> evaporation would take place.
>
> ****************************
>
> >
> > 10: Once a pottery container had been used as a "Chamber Pot" or "Slop
> > Pot", it could never be used again for storage of food or consumables,
> > because of the unpleasant smell and salts that would be concentrated in
> > the pottery, because of evaporation.
> >
> > 11: In very small communities, people would be reasonably close to their
> > gardening area, and would likely dump their Slop Pots in their own
> fields.
> >
> > 12: In larger communities, where some people were not directly earning
> > their living as Farmers, they would have a problem disposing of their
> > daily wastes. It would be likely that some people would become "Slop Pot
> > Disposers."
> >
> > 13: The relatively weak Slop Pots would be subject to frequent breakage.
> > Breakage would be most likely during handling, but would be
> particularily
> > likely to be broken when being dumped. It would be a difficult and
> > unpleasant task to pick up the pottery shards for disposal elsewhere.
> >
> > 14: Initially, it would be likely that the large broken shards would be
> > picked up and disposed of elsewhere, simply to avoid future tillage
> > problems in teh fields. Because of absorbed "fertilizer salts and
> > micro-organisms", it would soon become noticed that "the grass was
> > greener" in areas where the pottery shards were disposed of.
> >
>
> *****************************
>
> Again you run into the problem of the rainy season and flooding washing
> away
> the "salts".
>
> *****************************
>
> > 15 Much simpler for the Disposer would be to simply break the larger
> > shards into smaller shards that would not interfere with future tillage,
> > and leave then in the fields where they broke. It would be an easy job
> for
> > the Slop Disposer to sell the Farmer on the benefits of leaving the
> broken
> > shards in the field, as an "aid to growth."
>
> ******************************
>
> That is an assumption based on another assumption.    The first is that
> they
> noticed that areas with slop pot pottery shards were greener than areas
> without slop pot pottery shards, before rain and possable flooding washed
> the nutrients away.
>
> ******************************
>
> >
> > 16: We are told that there were large Terra Preta fields and large
> > Communities located near them. Disposal of human wastes on the nearby
> > fields may have been the fundamental factor that enabled the Community
> to
> > grow to the larger size for two very important reasons: A: The first and
> > most obvious reason would be increased soil fertility and and abundant
> > food supply, for both local consumption and for trading. B: Perhaps even
> > more fundamentally important would be the the improved health and vigor
> of
> > the People of the community as a result of improved sanitation.
> >
> > 17:  With a demand for Slop Pots and Chamber Pots, due to relatively
> > frequent breakage, there would be an economic opportunity for Potters,
> to
> > make and fire the pots. It would seem to be natural for the Slop Haulers
> > to "vertically integrate" and establish their own Pottery Works.
> >
> > 18: It would thus seem that Terra Preta was one element in permitting
> the
> > development of a larger community. It would appear to be a secondary
> > element, in that teh sanitation benefit would permit a higher level of
> > primary health, and and bountiful harvests from fertilized fields would
> > permit sustenance of good health.
>
> ************************
>
> That's a fairly large assumtion.    Have you watched The Secret of El
> Dorado? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76gAB5x0sjQ
>
> In it there are fairly good indications that the mounds of Terra Mulato in
> the middle of open savana, is nothing more than the result of human
> habitation and building up land to a level above the high water mark with
> various dirt and trash of daily living, and I very strongly suspect that
> living conditions were very much like the living conditions in early
> Midievil Europe, where chamber pots were emptied where ever convenant, at
> least in the better parts of the bigger cities, there was open sewage
> lines
> ( down the middle of the street ) to channel off the waste when it rained.
>
> If anything, I believe that it was more an inadvertant thing going on,
> people going to the edge of the city mound to dump refuse of all kinds,
> making the mounds bigger and inadvertantly making the soil richer, since
> once they got so high, the water from the rains would tend to run off
> rather
> than soak in, and while floods would wash some away, at least some would
> stay.    In the movie, they show a open pit, showing the pottery shards,
> and
> one thing that struck , was that the pottery shards were in layers, not
> jumbled up, as would be the case if they were in a farmers field.
>
> The action of a farmer ( at any point in history ) always jumbles up and
> mixes anything that is in the soil - in fact the last thing that a
> anthropologest wants to do is try and figure out what happened in a point
> in
> history, when it's a matter of dealing with farmers field ( and the longer
> it's under cultivation the worse it get's.
>
> OTOH, throwing refuse ( like pottery shards ), into water ( espicaly slow
> moving water ), will have the very effect seen in the excavated pit in the
> show - in fact it would actuay have the side effect of catching sediment
> in
> moving waters.
>
>
> *********************************
>
> >
> > 19: The Chinese are well known for their use of "night soil".
> > Archaelogical studies of Chinese Society would probably show up the
> > equivalent of "Chinese Terra Preta". Indeed, with historical migratory
> > patterns, it may very well have been that "Terra Preta" was invented in
> > China, and brought to "The New World" with migration of Asian People.
>  It
> > would be interesting indeed to trace back tom the origins of Fine
> Chinese
> > Pottery.
>
> *******************************
>
> At the time frame we are talking about, that in not likly at all - in fact
> it is highly unlikly, as someone would have had to get from the desolate
> west coast to the interior of the Amazon
>
> *******************************
>
> >
> > 20: This seems to tie together many things of importance to a Society,
> but
> > it overlooks one ingredient in Terra Preta, that being char. Elemental
> > carbon can be created by pyrolysis, and this is called "char" or
> > "charcoal", but the essence of Terra Preta is not char or charcoal, but
> > rather "Black Carbon", BC.
>
> *******************************
>
> What basis do you have for that theory?
>
> ********************************
>
> >
> > 21: We know from bogs and swamps and lake bottoms that there is a
> > mechanism where organic vegetative matter can  make the  transition
>  from
> > "organic  carbon" to a "black carbon" that is not further consumable
> > readily by soil or  bog or lake bottom organisms.  Some significant
> > portion of the BC in Terra Preta Soils could very well have resulted
> from
> > heavy application of Slops, which then gave a "fertile base from which
> to
> > grow crops very successfully.
>
> ********************************
>
> In the swampy situation you are talking about, the non-consumable carbon
> is
> usually in such a form, that you can recognize bit's of vegetative matter
> ( as vegetative matter ), yet this is not true of Terra Preta carbonatious
> material.
>
> *******************************
>
> >
> > 22: There would naturally be "profuse agricultural waste" from such
> > profuse growth. This could indeed be a disposal problem, and fire is a
> > very simple way of getting rid of bulky agricultural waste.
>
> ***************************
>
> Thus producing charcoal ( even if it is inadvertantly ).
>
> **************************
>
> >
> > 23: Additionally, we have the method suggested by Robert Kline for
> > disposing of Maize Stocks.
> >
> > 24: It would be a simple extension for the Amazonians to project that
> "if
> > some BC is good, then more is better". They could easily see that more
> > charcoal = more black soil. In effect, they were "doing the right thing
> > for the wrong reasons."
> >
>
> *******************************
>
> That is some real far reaching.    Think about it, all they are doing is
> burning crop residue off, how much tonnage of crop residue is going to
> have
> to be burnt ( open burning ), in order to have a 1% increase, in the level
> of char in the soil, when we ( using what is specialized equipment to make
> char ) only get a 25-35% return in char from biomass?
>
> The build up of char in the soil, is going to be so slow, that any
> substantual increase of char levels in the soil ( that would actualy make
> any noticable differance in the crop return ) would occure only over the
> course of generations - not from one season to the next.    No one would
> notice any differance from one season to the next.
>
> I don't have the numbers handy, but little char is actualy produced with
> open burning, so tons and tons of biomass would have to be burnt, in order
> to get the level of char needed in just a few seasons, for anyone to
> notice
> that increasing the level of char, increases plant production.
>
> *******************************
>
>
> > 24: What they were doing by going to a bit of extra work by building the
> > "char mounds" described by Robert, was providing much more Cationic
> > Exchange Potential, save haven for soil micro-organisms, and the ability
> > to capture and store excess nutrients for future use. Too much Slops in
> a
> > given area would likely lead to "nutrient overload" condition.
> >
> > 25: The employment of Robert's Char Technology may have been a
> > "de-bottlenecking" step that allowed yields from Slop treated soils to
> > rise to an even higher level.
> >
> > 26: With "the benefit of 20-20 hindsight," we can see how TP could have
> > evolved to yield a superior agricultural system from its roots as a
> waste
> > disposal system.
>
> **************************
>
> Your right, it is with hindsight that we see that what happened, they did
> increase the fertility, but it is far from 20/20 hindsight - it's more
> like
> looking into muddy water.
>
> If we actualy knew what it was they did, and why they did it, then it
> would
> be 20/20 hindsight - but for the same reasion that we continue to debate
> how
> Terra Preta became to be, is the same reasion hindsight is far from 20/20.
>
> *****************************
>
> >
> > 27: An interesting but unrelated parallel ecosystem is that of
> Aquaponics,
> > where "fish water" is applied to plants, and the "stripped water" is
> sent
> > back to the fish pond. Originally, with Pond Aquaculture, and a lack of
> > water, there was a limit to fish loading because of ammonia and nitrate
> > buildup. Aquaculturists found that plants would remove teh ammonia from
> > teh fish water, enabling them to grow more fish with less "new water."
> > Then the Plant People ran with teh idea and started growing fish to get
> a
> > second paying crop, and free fertilizer for their plants.
> >
> > Does this all hang together for you? Do you see any logic gaps or
> problems
> > that would negate what is presented above?
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
>
>
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