[Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14

[Sean K. Barry]

Hi Greg,

I think that it is only where charcoal-in-soil was put.  If it spreads, why hasn't it in 4500 years?  How can we find individual sites now, closely spaced?

Regards,

SKB
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Greg and April<mailto:gregandapril at earthlink.net> 
  To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
  Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 11:22 AM
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14


  I think we do need to understand the origins of Terra Preta - at least in part to understand the mechanics of how it has become self sustaining, and wither or not the science behind it would be useful in other places.

  What clues can we find?    Other than pottery shards and the physical / structural makeup of the char,  there is not much else that I know of due to the nature of the area.

  You are correct, that studying the nature of the mined TP might give a few more clues.


  Why is it self sustaining?    Personally I think that it's a matter of achieving a given nutrient density and CEC level after which the density of the plant life is able to keep it going.    

  What I would like to know is it able to spread or is it just confined to the areas of human influence.


  Greg H.

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> 
    To: 'Nikolaus Foidl'<mailto:nfoidl at desa.com.bo> ; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ; MFH<mailto:mfh01 at bigpond.net.au> 
    Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 0:40
    Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14


    Dear All,

    Is understanding the true origins of Terra Preta de Indio absolutely necessary in order to form Terra Preta Nova?

    If we examine known sites containing Terra Preta now, what clues can we take from the sites as to what is there that is working and then how can we export that effect to other sites.  What happens to TP soil that is mined and sold to be put onto another site or in pots?  Does that soil retain or grow its properties on the new site?

    I don't think finding the root mechanism for the buildup of Terra Preta formations 4500 years ago is really necessary to do this.

    Regards,

    SKB
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: MFH<mailto:mfh01 at bigpond.net.au> 
      To: 'Nikolaus Foidl'<mailto:nfoidl at desa.com.bo> ; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
      Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 8:44 PM
      Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14


      Well said Nikolaus.

      I've lived in Papua New Guinea for 40 years and understand your reasoning.
      To the surprise of many, 'formal' agriculture can be traced back at least
      8000 years in the Wahgi Valley of PNG.

      I tend to favour the argument that the TP soils are not the result of
      deliberate and planned char production and distribution. 

      Max Henderson

      -----Original Message-----
      From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org>
      [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Nikolaus Foidl
      Sent: Monday, 7 April 2008 11:33 AM
      To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
      Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14


      Dear All¨

      I live in Bolivia on a farm and next to our farm are several small
      indigenous villages or house gatherings where the original people still live
      as they did hundreds of years ago. They have, as we have a certain need to
      clean the houses from trash and the main place and the surroundings of the
      houses. Everything starting with rests of fruits and gardening as well rests
      of food and cooking is thrown into a pit in the backyard. Nowadays some have
      chicken and pigs so part of those thrown away organic materials are still
      taken as food from those animals what did not happen before the Spanish
      arrived because they had no chicken and pigs before. The fires which burn
      all day and long into the night to spook the mosquitoes away produce huge
      amounts of badly burned rests and ashes. The simple pottery they use are a
      short life pottery, they fall down, the dogs or pigs or children brake it,
      the pottery is not very heat resistant so brake easily when put into fire
      with something cooking in it etc. so there is a good amount of broken
      pottery a day in the village which as well is thrown into the trash pit in
      the backyard. The defecation as well is done next to the pit and thrown into
      it, to clean their ass, leaves and corncobs are the most used items which as
      well end up in the pit. So if you have a closer look at the content of the
      pit then you see that's an accumulation of a lot of minerals like potassium,
      phosphorus, nitrogen, magnesium ,calcium etc. If you do a mass balance over
      100 years or more its a simple mineral dump because with all that rain the
      organics after 3 to 6 weeks are all eaten up by bacteria and fungi and what
      is left is slower degrading bones from animals, lignin and some cellulose.
      After 500 years in such high water and high temperature environments even
      the bones and lignin etc . Are irecognizeable mineralized .
      So there is no meaningful wise man or ethnic which studied how to rise the
      fertility of the soils , no complicated thinking about cationic exchange
      capacity or nitrogen influence in crop production etc. it is as simple as it
      can get it is a series of dumpsters with over time interconnected. Those
      people had and still have several village like compounds which they visit
      regularly what means when the population of eat able animals is down due to
      over hunting they simply move on some kilometers and stay in the next place
      one or two seasons and after several years they come back to always the same
      places and erect again some very primitive housings and the cycle starts
      over again.
      You have to have in mind that under these conditions where you spend 95% of
      your time for surviving and where everybody has the same workload just to
      survive there is not much room for experiments and development. That's the
      reason why they are still 5000 years back in there social and human
      developement.Untill they develope a social network with different functions
      for different social groups in the village they wont have people freed from
      the dally workload of surviving so they can dedicate time for development of
      the same group.
      If somebody will have a look at our dumpsters in some 2000 years from now
      the same esoteric discussion about the deeper meaning of accumulating things
      in the dumpster will happen. What do you think why did the accumulate flat
      glass peaces and half round glass peaces so evenly distributed in the
      surrounding soil? Is it possible that they had a growing system where they
      avoided humidity loss from the soil covering the soil around the plants with
      different types of glasses, did they filter out different damaging light
      waves with different colors? And reality is : its a dumpster where we throw
      our waste in without thinking very much about the consequences.

      That's it , don't interpret things in terra preta which never where there,
      its a dumpster.

      Best regards Nikolaus





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