[Terrapreta] maybe controversial

[lou gold]

Jim,

A double bow of gratitude to you.

lou

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 6:09 PM, Jim Joyner <jimstoy at dtccom.net> wrote:

>  Thanks Lou.
>
> Being an old curmudgeon is a dirty job but somebody's gotta do it.
>
> Jim
>
>
> lou gold wrote:
>
> Jim,
>
> Well, reading your response does make me think that you are a man of
> strong beliefs.
>
> No, I am not diminishing anything when I say that egos and beliefs are
> tools. What is at issue is not whether we have them but rather how we use
> them. Right now we are hammering the earth. I think you would agree with
> that statement and not call it a "badly fallacious analogy," or would you?
> You see, it all depends on how something is (or is not) used. So I will go
> back my analogy: a good carpenter knows when not to use his hammer and a
> good scientist is careful about what his discovery is used for. In the final
> analysis his choice will require wisdom more than knowledge. And what he
> considers as wise will be very influenced by his beliefs. There no getting
> around it. So I truly believe that it is better to openly share one's
> beliefs and reveal their implications in action so that we might better
> understand whether to use them or not.
>
> And there is nothing at all wrong with "wish" as you have expressed it
> (close to a "desire"), Ghandi famously said, "We must be the change that we
> desire." Yes, this is indeed "be-lief." St Francis said the same in another
> way, "It is more blessed to give than to receive." And little me wishes a
> future full of big trees and happy children, so I must be here saying these
> things. You are correct, my "be-wish" is not knowledge but it guides my
> search and hopefully leads me to it. Do you really wish to make this beacon
> dim? What would you use instead?
>
> If I say, "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" it might (and has historically)
> lead to wars and slaughter. But if I say that and also say, "We are all
> Children of God" the outcome is quite different. And the difference that
> makes the difference in this case is ... belief! If properly used and
> understood, what a glorious thing it is!
>
> But there's a limit (as you suggest). It's not good to get too attached to
> your beliefs because then you will take them "personally" and THAT is where
> the mischief begins. Buddha saw this clearly and therefore counseled for "no
> attachment" rather than "no belief." And as this detachment develops it
> becomes, yes, just like a hammer that one can pick up or put down as is
> appropriate to the situation. It's called "right action." And that is
> precisely what I BELIEVE we are all looking for.
>
> A bow of gratitude to you (and this forum) for allowing me to "spout off"
> a bit. Apologies if there was (is) any offense in my words.
>
> hugs and blessings,
>
> lou
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Jim Joyner <jimstoy at dtccom.net> wrote:
>
> > Lou,
> >
> > I would agree that beliefs abound; I would not agree that they are
> > necessary for human life, certainly not survival. They rather seem an
> > anathema to life to me. To say, "egos and beliefs, like other tools such as
> > hammers, are only tools" is to use a badly fallacious analogy.
> >
> > Please don't confuse knowledge with beliefs. Knowledge *is* necessary
> > for humans to survive, and difficult enough, But belief (whether correct or
> > incorrect) is bound to something purely personal, and I mean that in the
> > worst sense. ("Person" or "personal" comes from persona, a mask, a false
> > front, the ego -- in a sense something that doesn't really exist except in
> > thought. At best an illusion, at worst a delusion. The root word in belief
> > is "lief" or wish. To say I believe is to say I be-wish . . . not a
> > statement of knowledge)
> >
> > If I say, "the sun is coming up at 6:30AM", that is simply a statement
> > of content that may be right or wrong : knowledge. It is not who I think I
> > am. One can easily disagree with knowledge as right or wrong . . . if that
> > is all it is, then no one will care.
> >
> > If, however, I say, I *believe* that Jesus Christ is the son of God, the
> > content of the statement isn't really the issue (right or wrong, rational or
> > irrational). What is being stated is who I think I am. If that statement is
> > threatened (disagreed upon), it is the same a as death threat to the speaker
> > -- and he/she will fight as if death itself were at the door. Given
> > legitimate use of weapons (gov't), he/she will dominate other life by force.
> > Never fails. No exceptions. Just look around.
> >
> > To put beliefs on a level with "tools such as hammers" is to be Neville
> > Chamberlain holding up a piece of paper signed by Hitler and saying, "you
> > see, everything will be alright, they simply see things differently that we
> > do".
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > lou gold wrote:
> >
> > yes, yes belief is only belief. like ego it is a necessary tool for
> > survival. just try to function without any beliefs (such as crossing a
> > street is potentially dangerous).
> >
> > but egos and beliefs, like other tools such as hammers, are only tools.
> > it is important to know when not to use them.
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Jim Joyner <jimstoy at dtccom.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Probably, the most dangerous commodity on the face of the planet is
> > > human belief systems. Not their content necessarily (which may or may not be
> > > correct), but just act of the believing, ultimately an expression of ego.
> > >
> > > The worst of such belief systems are argued with the notion that logic
> > > makes them valid. They conveniently forget that all knowledge is based on
> > > assumptions or axioms, and that the quality of all thought (and probably the
> > > quality of human life) rests on the quality of assumptions made. They start
> > > with a belief, then they use the rational facility to justify it. Religions,
> > > governments and political ideologies come to mind. Sometimes, science. Some
> > > belief systems seem more innocuous than others. But, it may be they just
> > > don't have the guns yet to enforce the belief.
> > >
> > > These belief systems have been and are the source of practically all
> > > human suffering on the planet, not to mention the innocent bystander
> > > species.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> >
>
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