[Terrapreta] Fwd: evil ethanol

[joe ferguson]

Gerald Van Koeverden wrote:
> Lou,
>
> I agree.  It is a great shame to see the massive deforestration in the 
> Amazon.  But:
>
> 1.  The resulting high commodity prices are not an "evil" to North 
> American farmers.  They are delighted to be able to produce a crop 
> without requiring subsidies to not only break even, but actually make 
> a profit.
But there is a HUGE subsidy: but it's paid to the ethanol factories 
(e.g., AMD), not the farmer.  But that drives up the price of the corn 
for all users, not just the traditional corn users (and for all 
substituting commodities, too.)  So the farmer gets the multiplying 
benefit of higher prices and a larger harvest.  And guess who pays -- 
twice?  The consumer and taxpayer.  That's us, in both our roles.
>
> 2.  All capital intensive agriculture is very "unnatural".  The more 
> land we exploit as monoculture farmland, the less is available for use 
> by the rest of the species inhabiting this world, and for maintaining 
> our climate/weather, etc.  
>
> 3.  Should Brazil sacrifice their potential economic gains from 
> converting forestland to farmland?  How can we get an international 
> consensus on important issues, as long as the United Nations is held 
> in such low regard by the most powerful nation of the world? 
>
> 4.  I don't think that sugarcane is 10 times as efficient as corn in 
> producing ethanol, though it is more efficient.  I've read that the 
> USA could import it from Brazil for less than it costs to produce from 
> corn.  Why don't they? 
They do.  But the tariff is set to offset the subsidy paid to the 
ethanol producers. 

And the 10X efficiency is an energy use efficiency based upon the fossil 
fuel energy input used in production of sugarcane vs corn.
>
> I just have more questions...
>
> Gerald
>  
> On 23-Apr-08, at 9:28 AM, lou gold wrote:
>> Hey Gerald,
>>
>> I agree but it's not about "evil ethanol" but about "evil corn 
>> ethanol". Why "evil"? Because sugarcane is 10 times more efficient, 
>> because the US corn ethanol program is a major taxpayer funded 
>> boondoggle that is distorting global markets and food supplies, and 
>> because the resulting jump in soybean prices (as soy planting shifted 
>> to corn in the US) resulted in a return to massive deforestation in 
>> the Brazilian Amazon. Perhaps, you might agree that these are "evil" 
>> outcomes?
>>
>> hugs,
>>
>> lou
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Gerald Van Koeverden 
>> <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca <mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>     Sorry.  I don't know.
>>>
>>>     Whatever the case, those dollar values are all old values from
>>>     several years ago.  This is a program that works in Excel.  Just
>>>     replace those values, with the new ones for your area.  You can
>>>     also adjust efficiency of the furnace, to suit your condition.
>>>
>>>
>>>     On 22-Apr-08, at 10:05 PM, MFH wrote:
>>>>     Gerald,
>>>>      
>>>>     Apparently a "cord" of wood can be different volumes.
>>>>      
>>>>     For example, a 'stove' cord is 4ft x 8ft x 12" and a 'face'
>>>>     cord is 4ft x 9ft x 16", whereas a full cord is 4ft x 8ft x 4ft.
>>>>      
>>>>     Do you know which is used in the Excel spreadsheet?  If it's a
>>>>     full cord then $130 sounds too cheap.
>>>>      
>>>>     Max H
>>>>      
>>>>      
>>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>     *From:* terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
>>>>     <mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org>
>>>>     [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] *On Behalf
>>>>     Of *Gerald Van Koeverden
>>>>     *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 April 2008 5:08 AM
>>>>     *To:* terra pretta group
>>>>     *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] evil ethanol
>>>>      
>>>>     Sorry.
>>>>      
>>>>     Lost the actual link. Here's the whole program
>>>>      
>>>>      
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> http://lougold.blogspot.com
>> http://flickr.com/visionshare/sets
>> http://youtube.com/my_videos
>
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