[Terrapreta] Strong warning against "simple" charcoal kilns

[Sean K. Barry]

Hi Robert,

Put Methane-CH4 close to hot ignition source, mix it in with 10 times as much H2 gas and 10 times as much CO gas, and limit the oxygen supply and/or do not confine the gases from escaping, then I will guarantee that some (most!) of that Methane-CH4 WILL NOT BURN before it escapes and acts like Methane-CH4 in the atmosphere.

Regards,

SKB
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Robert Klein<mailto:arclein at yahoo.com> 
  To: MFH<mailto:mfh01 at bigpond.net.au> 
  Cc: terra pretta group<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
  Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 11:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Strong warning against "simple" charcoal kilns


  Sean

  How much methane does a forest fire put into the atmosphere?

  How much methane does the massive slash and burn conducted in Indonesia produce?

  How do you prevent methane from igniting close to an ignition source so that it might escape and then leisurely act in the new role as a greenhouse gas?

  regards

  arclein


  ----- Original Message ----
  From: MFH <mfh01 at bigpond.net.au<mailto:mfh01 at bigpond.net.au>>
  To: Sean K. Barry <sean.barry at juno.com>; Kurt Treutlein <rukurt at westnet.com.au>
  Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
  Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 8:36:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Strong warning against "simple" charcoal kilns


  Sean



  Sorry if I’m being a little thick about this, but if the methane has to pass through the fire zone at the base of the inner drum, won’t it burn?



  M






------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: Sean K. Barry [mailto:sean.barry at juno.com] 
  Sent: Monday, 28 April 2008 10:24 AM
  To: 'Kurt Treutlein'; MFH
  Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Strong warning against "simple" charcoal kilns



  Hi Max,



  Try this?  When carbonacious organic wastes (biomass?) are left to decay in open air, they decompose into CO2.  When pushed underground into a landfill, some of the carbon molecules in the biomass decompose into Methane-CH4, which is also under the ground, and is often already being harvested.  In fact it is illegal to allow Methane-CH4 emissions from landsfills.  It can be economical to harvest the trapped Methane gas found in landfills.  There is quickly growing industry in harvesting ""landfill" gas.  Fecal wastes from animal feed lots is also are left mostly, to decay in open air, producing both CO2 and CH4.  Anearobic Digester systems can harvest the Methane from animal waste pools.



  Now, the "charcoal-in-a-barrel" kiln?  Well, when biomass if pyrolyzed in open air (or limited amounts of air).  This pyrolysis reaction generates "producer gas" (H2:~20~, CO:~20%, CO2:~10-15%, H2O:~5%, Methane-CH4:~2-3%, and Nitrogen gas-N2:~40-45%)



  Air is 19% Oxygen, 78% Nitrogen, Argon is next, and some other trace gases (like CO2 @ 383 parts per million).



  The release of just the 2-3% Methane-CH4 content does more damage to the atmosphere than is ALL of the carbon were released as CO2.  This is because Methane-CH4 is a long-lived and far more potent contributor to the green house warming effect than is CO2 (23-62 times more potent, depending on how long of a time frame you consider).  The production of large amounts of charcoal using "charcoal-in-a-barrel' kilns (and the release of any substantial portion of the Methane-CH4 from the process would undermine Terra Preta Nova in a profound way.  Here we would be trying to mitigate climate and improve growing conditions, but while we tried we shot ourselves in the foot and advanced the speed of increase in the GHG warming effect.



  This doesn't even mention other pollutants possible from charcoal production in cheap simple "charcoal-in-a-barrel" kilns.  These include particulates (carciniogens) and other toxic , air borne compounds.  Who ever "sits" sucking in smoke form a camp fire?  It also does not mention that there is an enormous waste of usable energy, due to the inefficiencies of this type of design.



  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane>



  There are some who will dispute this claim.  I know that there are more who would support this.  If you must learn about charcoal in soil, then make some charcoal by any means, if you cannot get it from someone who can make it right, but advocating "millions" of these typoes of kilns is a bad idea.  Advocate "millions" of "Clean Charcoal Kilns" instead.



  Regards,



  SKB

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: MFH<mailto:mfh01 at bigpond.net.au> 

    To: 'Kurt Treutlein'<mailto:rukurt at westnet.com.au> 

    Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 

    Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 6:28 PM

    Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Strong warning against "simple" charcoal kilns



    I'm struggling to understand why "millions" of back-yard simple kilns
    producing char to be buried in gardens aren't better than not having any at
    all. More particularly if they are consuming household scraps and garbage
    that would otherwise find its way to landfill.

    Sit on our hands and wait for big business to develop squillion dollar char
    factories, or do something positive at a personal level?

    Max H


    -----Original Message-----
    From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org>
    [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Kurt Treutlein
    Sent: Monday, 28 April 2008 9:21 AM
    Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
    Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Strong warning against "simple" charcoal kilns

    Hi folkes,

    Hands up all those who have "Strongly warned" against Folkes simple kiln 
    concept, who are NOT working on developing a sophisticated highly 
    efficient pyrolises system with the idea of marketing it to the world to 
    make the gigatons of bio-char we will need to reverse GW.

    Anybody???

    Kurt

    _______________________________________________
    Terrapreta mailing list
    Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/>
    http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org<http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/>
    http://info.bioenergylists.org<http://info.bioenergylists.org/>


    _______________________________________________
    Terrapreta mailing list
    Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/>
    http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org<http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/>
    http://info.bioenergylists.org<http://info.bioenergylists.org/>



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ>_______________________________________________
  Terrapreta mailing list
  Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
  http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
  http://info.bioenergylists.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /attachments/20080427/1f4d2764/attachment.html