[Terrapreta] Strong warning against "simple" charcoal kilns

[MFH]

I can't speak for Volke's system, but in the trials with my experimental
drum kiln the temp of the gas flame under the drum reaches 1500C+ in the
presence of free O2.  

 

I'd be surprised if any methane escapes that.

 

Max H

 

 

  _____  

From: Sean K. Barry [mailto:sean.barry at juno.com] 
Sent: Monday, 28 April 2008 2:43 PM
To: 'Kurt Treutlein'; MFH
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Strong warning against "simple" charcoal kilns

 

Hi Max,

 

Not necessarily.  Methane-CH4 burns at a higher temperature than CO or H2.
Burning the (CO and H2) gases will use up the available oxygen before the
Methane-CH4 will burn.  There is almost 10 times as much CO and ten times as
much H2 in "producer gas" as there is Methane-CH4 in producer gas.  The heat
of formation of Methane-CH4 (the energy needed to begin combustion) and the
amount of oxygen needed to burn Methane-CH4 are both greater than either H2
or CO.  So, the H2 and CO content in the "producer gas" start burning at
lower temperatures and will use up most, if not all, of the oxygen before
the Methane-CH4 can even begin to burn.  To burn the Methane-CH4 would
require injection of oxygen above what is needed to combust the CO and H2.
The heat generated from H2 and CO burning may ignite the Methane-CH4, but
without enough oxygen, it will more likely just just eject it from the
reactor, un-burned, because there was not enough oxygen left.

 

Regards,

 

SKB

----- Original Message ----- 

From: MFH <mailto:mfh01 at bigpond.net.au>  

To: 'Sean K. Barry' <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>  ; 'Kurt
<mailto:rukurt at westnet.com.au>  Treutlein' 

Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org 

Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:36 PM

Subject: RE: [Terrapreta] Strong warning against "simple" charcoal kilns

 

Sean

 

Sorry if I'm being a little thick about this, but if the methane has to pass
through the fire zone at the base of the inner drum, won't it burn?

 

M

 

 


  _____  


From: Sean K. Barry [mailto:sean.barry at juno.com] 
Sent: Monday, 28 April 2008 10:24 AM
To: 'Kurt Treutlein'; MFH
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Strong warning against "simple" charcoal kilns

 

Hi Max,

 

Try this?  When carbonacious organic wastes (biomass?) are left to decay in
open air, they decompose into CO2.  When pushed underground into a landfill,
some of the carbon molecules in the biomass decompose into Methane-CH4,
which is also under the ground, and is often already being harvested.  In
fact it is illegal to allow Methane-CH4 emissions from landsfills.  It can
be economical to harvest the trapped Methane gas found in landfills.  There
is quickly growing industry in harvesting ""landfill" gas.  Fecal wastes
from animal feed lots is also are left mostly, to decay in open air,
producing both CO2 and CH4.  Anearobic Digester systems can harvest the
Methane from animal waste pools.

 

Now, the "charcoal-in-a-barrel" kiln?  Well, when biomass if pyrolyzed in
open air (or limited amounts of air).  This pyrolysis reaction generates
"producer gas" (H2:~20~, CO:~20%, CO2:~10-15%, H2O:~5%, Methane-CH4:~2-3%,
and Nitrogen gas-N2:~40-45%)

 

Air is 19% Oxygen, 78% Nitrogen, Argon is next, and some other trace gases
(like CO2 @ 383 parts per million).

 

The release of just the 2-3% Methane-CH4 content does more damage to the
atmosphere than is ALL of the carbon were released as CO2.  This is because
Methane-CH4 is a long-lived and far more potent contributor to the green
house warming effect than is CO2 (23-62 times more potent, depending on how
long of a time frame you consider).  The production of large amounts of
charcoal using "charcoal-in-a-barrel' kilns (and the release of any
substantial portion of the Methane-CH4 from the process would undermine
Terra Preta Nova in a profound way.  Here we would be trying to mitigate
climate and improve growing conditions, but while we tried we shot ourselves
in the foot and advanced the speed of increase in the GHG warming effect.

 

This doesn't even mention other pollutants possible from charcoal production
in cheap simple "charcoal-in-a-barrel" kilns.  These include particulates
(carciniogens) and other toxic , air borne compounds.  Who ever "sits"
sucking in smoke form a camp fire?  It also does not mention that there is
an enormous waste of usable energy, due to the inefficiencies of this type
of design.

 

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

 

There are some who will dispute this claim.  I know that there are more who
would support this.  If you must learn about charcoal in soil, then make
some charcoal by any means, if you cannot get it from someone who can make
it right, but advocating "millions" of these typoes of kilns is a bad idea.
Advocate "millions" of "Clean Charcoal Kilns" instead.

 

Regards,

 

SKB

----- Original Message ----- 

From: MFH <mailto:mfh01 at bigpond.net.au>  

To: 'Kurt Treutlein' <mailto:rukurt at westnet.com.au>  

Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org 

Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 6:28 PM

Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Strong warning against "simple" charcoal kilns

 

I'm struggling to understand why "millions" of back-yard simple kilns
producing char to be buried in gardens aren't better than not having any at
all. More particularly if they are consuming household scraps and garbage
that would otherwise find its way to landfill.

Sit on our hands and wait for big business to develop squillion dollar char
factories, or do something positive at a personal level?

Max H


-----Original Message-----
From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
[mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Kurt Treutlein
Sent: Monday, 28 April 2008 9:21 AM
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Strong warning against "simple" charcoal kilns

Hi folkes,

Hands up all those who have "Strongly warned" against Folkes simple kiln 
concept, who are NOT working on developing a sophisticated highly 
efficient pyrolises system with the idea of marketing it to the world to 
make the gigatons of bio-char we will need to reverse GW.

Anybody???

Kurt

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