[Terrapreta] Focus ON TOPIC: what can TP do against GW/GCC

[Sean K. Barry]

Hi Duane,

The perspective I have been trying to take is that there are at least two benefits to charcoal-in-soil: 1) it appears to be able to improve the fertility of some soils, particularly soils which are low in organic matter or nutrients for some reason (e.g. like the Oxisol soils in the Amazon) and 2) it can sequester CO2 for a long time (several centuries at least or even several millennia).

1) The soil fertility and agricultural productivity benefits may take quite some time to develop with any particular soil, even if the research for how to do it does not take quite some time, and in the end it may not really be a useful or large benefit in some soils, or maybe not a large enough benefit to justify the investment in particular types of soil.  Some tell me "NO FARMER WILL EVER DO THIS UNLESS IS SHOWS ECONOMIC VAIBILITY WITHING AT MOST A YEAR  OR TWO OR VERY FEW!".  This is like telling me I have to believe that only farmers can put charcoal-in-soil? Maybe it doesn't do anything obvious in temperate and relatively fertile soils versus tropical and infertile soils?  Who knows if it can repair soils degraded by "overuse" with industrial agriculture regimens?

2) Putting charcoal-in-soil to sequester it takes no more research to determine (there is charcoal at least 4500 years old still in the soil in the Amazon).  With charcoal made from biomass that is grown in the atmosphere putting this charcoal into soil has the advantage that it removes CO2 from the atmosphere.  If one can accept that CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere are rising too fast and are already high to a troublesome level, then one can use 2) immediately to remove CO2 from the atmosphere and sequester it in soil.  It is already known how to make charcoal without emissions of Methane-CH4.  It appears charcoal-in-soil can reduce N2O emissions.  So, making charcoal-in-soil now can make important and immediate strides to reduce the rise in GHG concentrations. 

Given that my perspective is that atmospheric CO2 concentrations do indeed need to be reduced in a very large way very soon (circa 10-20 years or so) and I think charcoal-in-soil can do this, then this is where I put my focus in the discussions on the TP list.  Tom Miles, Michael Bailles, and Ron Larson all have stated that Carbon sequestration via formation of Terra Preta soils is a goal of the TP list members, part of the charter for the website and the list (see this in writing => http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/about<http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/about>), and a valid topic for discussion among members of the list.

Now, try to mention this point on the open list and you will get many claims that you are a OFF-TOPIC, that you have "the cart before the horse" , and/or that the benefits to soil are far more important than the possible CO2 removal from the atmosphere or the carbon sequestration benefits, like those pushing the latter benefits are greedy money grubbing desires and soil benefits are altruistic.  I am an AGW advocate.  I know TP can reduce GW.  I will make this claim to my dying days.  I also believe that TP for fixing GW is MORE IMPORTANT NOW than TP for soil benefits.  I don't think balance is needed.  I think TP soil benefits will be a long time in coming and TP for reducing the effects of GW/GCC is needed right now.

I think those who wish to stifle me and say that I have the wrong perspective about this is hogwash!  My perspective is that our world is suffering greatly now, already under stress of rising CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere, and that it will get very bad relatively soon for growing anything, regardless of the soil, if we do not address the problem, cease CO2 emissions, and make a huge effort to remove CO2 and reduce the concentrations back to a safer level (somewhere between 280 and 350 ppm).

This assertion that I am OFF TOPIC and should be muzzled on this list is insensible to me.  It angers me to be insulted about this.  I think that climate has more to do with healthy plant growth than soil.  Plants can be growth without soil, but not without water.  Water availability and soil with enough water in it are two of the first problems that are going to result as part of the GW/GCC effects.  Many plants cannot survive in dry heat.  Desertification is occurring with ever increasing rapidity.  Habitat destruction for plant life is being changed by GW and GCC.
Large swaths of existing arable land will be inundated by just a few meters of sea level rise.

I think making charcoal and putting it in soil to save the climate is "the horse", and the soils benefits to dry, infertile soils is "the cart".

This perspective is not given the respect it is due on the TP list.

Now all of you reading this are going to think I am a goofy bastard ... Would anyone of you please post this to the list that I have un-subscribed from!?  Hahahaha!

Regards,

SKB
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Duane Pendergast<mailto:still.thinking at computare.org> 
  To: 'Sean K. Barry'<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> 
  Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 3:16 PM
  Subject: RE: [Terrapreta] Focus ON TOPIC: what can TP do against GW/GCC


  Sean



  I've already been taken to task on the list for suggesting the list keep a focus on establishing the soil benefits of terra preta. I guess you are one of the culprits taking it off focus too.  It was one of the commercial outfits with a very vested interest in establishing credits that jumped me. I have thought of unsubscribing and taking a look occasionally as it is getting quite active.



  I'm coming at this from the perspective of twenty years involvement with all those carbon sink, cap and trade, carbon tax issues and it's getting a bit boring.



  Those cartoons are quite apt. It does get a bit addictive, and I'm sure you will be able to contribute more to terra preta off the list. Still I'm hoping you will be back when the list gets off on some other tack.



  Duane



  -----Original Message-----
  From: Sean K. Barry [mailto:sean.barry at juno.com] 
  Sent: June 5, 2008 11:12 AM
  To: still.thinking at computare.org
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Focus ON TOPIC: what can TP do against GW/GCC



  Hi Duane,



  No, I un-subscribed.  I'm tired of being dismissed as a heretic, OFF-TOPIC, proselytizing, pedantic, too over zealous, having messianic fury, and/or wrong by the likes of Kevin Chisholm, Kurt, and Greg H of Greg and April fame.  I've tried to have these discussions off-line, but they drag them into the forum, insult me and try to make a mockery out of me for what I have to say in front of the public forum.  I get pissed off and contemptuous.  I'm very likely going to be called a "baby with poopy diapers" for thinking so and leaving the list.  Nonetheless, I am just going to take my marbles and go home now.  



  Today, I get more E-MAIL posts from Kevin Chisholm trying to characterize my position as fruitless waste of the TP lists time and putting the cart before the horse.  I only think of saying things like "Is his marginal land in Nova Scotia 'low country', like anywhere close to sea level?"  Do you see the contempt?



  I've got better things to do than argue online with idiots (my opinion)  and there is nobody on the TP list is going to miss hearing anything I have to say.



  http://xkcd.com/386/<http://xkcd.com/386/>

  http://xkcd.com/406/<http://xkcd.com/406/>

  Ever find yourself in these situations? 



  Good Luck ... keep in touch, I still have your E-MAIL address.



  Regards,



  SKB



  Sean K. Barry
  Principal Engineer/Owner
  Troposphere Energy, LLC
  11170 142nd St. N.
  Stillwater, MN 55082-4797
  (651)-285-0904 (Work/Cell)
  (651)-351-0711 (Home/Fax)

  sean.barry at juno.com<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>



  ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Duane Pendergast<mailto:still.thinking at computare.org> 

    To: 'Sean K. Barry'<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> ; 'Kevin Chisholm'<mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net> 

    Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:58 AM

    Subject: RE: [Terrapreta] Focus ON TOPIC: what can TP do against GW/GCC



    Morning Sean,



    In a list response to Kevin, I suggested that there is excessive discussion of these issues here as there is elsewhere. The media is saturated with discussion to the point I suspect most of the public just tune out. Here in Canada the global warming crowd is reinventing cap and trade and carbon tax discussion that took place in earnest ten years ago.  Kevin and I are likely more exposed to that than you in the US where you did not ratify Kyoto and are thus more tired of it. Similarly those interested in establishing the value of terra preta to soil might tune out of the list.



    I hope the posting indicating you are leaving the group is just an inadvertent indicator you are going on vacation.  I've cut off the emails from the list several times as the number of messages is overwhelming while traveling.



    Duane



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Sean K. Barry [mailto:sean.barry at juno.com] 
    Sent: June 4, 2008 1:27 PM
    To: still.thinking at computare.org; 'Kevin Chisholm'
    Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Focus ON TOPIC: what can TP do against GW/GCC



    Hi Duane,



    Nothing you have said or written in this most previous post or ever before would lead me to conclude that you thought this, Duane.



    I merely asked the question because I am again trying to point out to this group and bring on discussions about "How rising CO2 concentrations, Global Warming, Global Climate Change, AND Terra Preta can be tied together?".  I would say that contrary to some belief in here that "tipping points", awareness of GW, GCC, and the clear evidence of the Anthropogenic Causes for these are completely ON TOPIC here.



    Especially so, when one considers how valuable the concept of carbon sequestration in soil could be to BOTH the fight to combat GW/GCC and the objective of improving agricultural productivity and food production in a world with a growing population and one that can no longer afford the "juiced up" (by fossil fuel source hydrogen) agronomy that now persists.



    Regards,



    SKB

      ----- Original Message ----- 

      From: Duane Pendergast<mailto:still.thinking at computare.org> 

      To: 'Sean K. Barry'<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> ; 'Kevin Chisholm'<mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net> 

      Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:52 AM

      Subject: RE: [Terrapreta] Rising CO2 vs Terra Preta Nova



      Sean  



      I don't have doubts that charcoal-in-soil can remove soil from the atmosphere and sequester it. I'm not sure what I wrote that would generate that impression. 



      Duane





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