[Terrapreta] pulverizing charcoal--Hosting microbes

Greg and April gregandapril at earthlink.net
Wed May 21 13:19:11 CDT 2008

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David, don't forget that the temperatures reached when charring the plant material also plays a big part in pore size.

Greg H.

----- Original Message -----
From: David Yarrow
To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 11:33
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] pulverizing charcoal--Hosting microbes

micropore size is definitely a key characteristic of biochar, and vegetation definitely has a wide variation in the size of the spaces in the cellulose fiber matrix. i've seen no data on this yet, but in general, tropical plants (trees & herbaceous) have larger pore sizes than many temperate climate trees. in this regard, i expect many smaller plants, and herbaceous plants, will offer similar larger size micropores, better suited to microbial habitat -- plus far easier to crush the coarse charred biomass to produce smaller pieces that are more easily assimilated into the soil's living biomass.

for a green & peaceful planet,
David Yarrow
44 Gilligan Rd, E Greenbush, NY 12061
www.championtrees.org
www.OnondagaLakePeaceFestival.org
www.farmandfood.org
www.SeaAgri.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Ludlow
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] pulverizing charcoal--Hosting microbes

Hi Max,

When I search for activated carbon specifications, the pore radii are often expressed as a single-digit nanometer or even in the Angstrom range (similar to zeolites).

It's very difficult for me to imagine very much life occurring in cavities so miniscule. 0.22 microns is a cut-off exclusion size for most bacteria. Perhaps there are mesoporous structures that are more right-sized. Am I missing something here?

Best,

Mark

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From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of MFH
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 3:21 AM
To: 'Larry Williams'
Cc: 'Miles Tom'; 'folke Günther'; 'bakaryjatta'
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] pulverizing charcoal

Further on charcoals ability to take up water.

Basically, if there is no water uptake then the char will serve little purpose as there will not be a suitable environment in the passageways for bacteria and fungal growth, nor for root penetration. So before adding your home made char to the garden add some to a bucket of water and if it floats you'll need to add a surfactant.

Max H

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From: Larry Williams [mailto:lwilliams at nas.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 21 May 2008 6:58 PM
To: MFH
Cc: folke Günther; Miles Tom; bakaryjatta
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] pulverizing charcoal

This photograph, taken by Richard Haard, in a garden situation seems to support the idea that the critters and the plant roots help to break charcoal apart. The larger dry piece of charcoal which the knife point is laying on was in the ground for nearly one year and it does not resemble the smaller piece of charcoal which had one small white flat worm (the white oval spot) and apparent plant roots attached to it. The larger dry piece of charcoal indicates little biological activity.

I can only suggest that the dry charcoal was buried just after it was made. Likely it was a product of last spring's earthen mound kiln with no special attempt to wet, size, fertilize or inoculate it. Is it possible that pieces of charcoal can be in the ground for a year and not get saturated? Why?

In my gardening activities, I have found a considerable number of charcoal pieces that, I believe, have been compacted by foot traffic during home construction. Usually this charcoal is found when draining systems are installed or repaired. These photographs are examples (here, here and here), also taken by Rich. These specific pieces could have been in the ground since the land was cleared for construction of the home some ninety years ago and were 4-6" (10-15 cm) below the surface. This charcoal was 18" (45 cm) from an aged moss covered brick wall with no noticeable fire markings suggesting that the charcoal was buried for a period of time that was closer to the construction of the home than of recent origin.

From my perspective, the placement of charcoal in the soil needs to meet certain requirements for it to interact with the soil's biology. I agree with Max and Folke that the charcoal is broken up by the local biology in due course. Soil compaction may likely stall the break up of charcoal (till the next ice age? I live in a location where the last ice age was fifteen thousand years ago and was a mile... 1600 meters thick ice sheet).

Keep your eyes open for there is charcoal in more places than you might believe, just under your foot-------Larry (in the wet Pacific NW)

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On May 20, 2008, at 3:26 PM, MFH wrote:

Worms feed by "sucking" moist particles of organic matter. They have no teeth. It appears that fine grains of soil or sand or char are ingested to assist in the breakdown of the organic matter in the worm's intestines.

It seems unlikely that worms could be directly involved in breaking down large char pieces. That doesn't mean that there isn't a link. If the moisture conditions are suitable and there is ample organic matter then there will be worms, and worms will improve the soil, and improved soil will mean more plant vigour, which will mean more plant roots. And more plant roots will mean greater breakdown of charcoal lumps, as the roots penetrate holes and gaps seeking nutrients and moisture. The forces generated by expanding roots is considerable, as evidenced domestically by broken concrete paths and damaged pipes.

And there are lots of roots. A mature rye plant has a total of around 600 km. of roots.

Max H

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From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of folke Günther
Sent: Wednesday, 21 May 2008 8:01 AM
To: Greg and April
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] pulverizing charcoal

I don't know what happens if you have very large amounts, but if you add a reasonable (>a kilo per sq. m) amount of unsorted (up to 4-5 cm pieces) char to he soil, and wait for a year, then all char will be very soft and easily split up in smaller pieces. I think the plant roots do most of the on, and he worms will hunt for bacteria in the char.

2008/5/20 Greg and April <gregandapril at earthlink.net>:

Are you sure about that ?

We already have some evidence that when char level get above a certain level in worm bins, they don't do very well - probably because it's so abrasive.

If you add amounts of char in the worm-bin, the organic material will disintegrate rather fast, the microbes will be eaten by the worms, an after some time (faster than you think), almost only the char will be left. It is evident that the worms don't thrive very well there!

If it's abrasive enough to keep worm levels down, what makes you think that the worms can make big pieces small?

I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just pointing out that we may have some evidence that what you said may not be true.

Greg H.

----- Original Message -----

From: folke Günther

To: May Waddington

Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org ; Roy Lent

Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 2:17

Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] pulverizing charcoal

The worms and the plant roots will do the job. After a year, all pieces are conveniently small.
FG

--
NB :Send your mails to folkeg at gmail.com, not to holon.se
----------------------------------------
Folke Günther
Kollegievägen 19
224 73 Lund
Sweden
Phone: +46 (0)46 141429
Cell: +46 (0)709 710306
URL: http://www.holon.se/folke
BLOG: http://folkegunther.blogspot.com/

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