[Terrapreta] Sugar and urine experiments

[Kevin Chisholm]

Dear Sean

I would suggest that your experiments as proposed below are irrelevant 
to Dr. Karve's proposed system, in that he does not suggest growing in 
sterile media, and he does not suggest the use of manure, urine, or 
Azotobacter. All he says is "If you water plants with a dilute sugar 
solution, they will grow better than if you use water alone." They are 
not relevant to the Terra Preta List, in that they do not test for 
charcoal benefits.

Why not a simple test as follows:

Pot 1: Soil plus 1 radish seed. Water as necessary.
Pot 2: Identical soil, light, atmosphere, and temperature conditions 
plus 1 radish seed. Water with pure water as required, but supplement 
with periodic sugar solution additions, as per Dr. Karve recommendations.

Pots 3 and 4: Same as 1: and 2: except add 5% charcoal by volume.

Do experiments in triplicate.

Now that would tell you something helpful about sugar additions and 
charcoal additions.

Kevin


Sean K. Barry wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Let's make it an exercise in the "Scientific Method",
> 
> Hypothesis: Small amounts of sugar, manure, and urine promote the
> growth of soil microorganisms, like the ubiquitous "Azotobacter".
> This, in turn, promotes the growth of plants which need nitrogen,
> because "Azotobacter" is a "nitrogen fixer" and lots of those
> "Azotobacter" can fix lots of nitrogen, for those plants to use.
> 
> Discussion: Well, if that bacteria "fixes" nitrogen into the soil,
> how does that nitrogen get released into water solution, so the
> plants can take it up into their roots, before it "gases off" into
> the atmosphere?  We might need a theory about that?  I'm thinking
> that maybe the "nitrogen fixers" have to die before they will release
> their chemical compounds into solution in the soil.  I could be wrong
> about that, but then why are these "Azotobacter" called
> "nitrogen-FIXERS"?  So, I'm thinking, half alive and half dead
> "Azobacter" in soil will do the trick?  Lucky for those plants, urea
> (CON2H4) in urine contains nitrogen already and some one says cow
> dung (dairy cow dung) contains phosphorus and calcium.  So, let's go
> with that as our entire fertilization regime.  Pick a plant or plants
> which grow well in any soil and which do not absolutely require
> potassium-K, sulfer-S, magnesium-Mg, or any other of the trace
> nutrients.  I'm not sure any plants like that exist?
> 
> Simple experiment: Set up three types of soil pots, six pots total,
> plant some nitrogen loving plants in it, see how they grow.
> 
> The 6 Soil pots and there treatments:
> 
> 1) Organic matter free, "sterile" sand; put in the seeds.
> 
> 2) Organic matter free, "sterile" sand; put in 25kg/hectare of sugar
> (sucrose good enough?) water, 25kg/hectare of cow manure, and
> 25kg/hectare of cow urine, plants the seeds.
> 
> 3) Organic matter free, "sterile" sand; put in 25kg/hectare of sugar
> (sucrose good enough?) water, 25kg/hectare of cow manure, and
> 25kg/hectare of cow urine, inoculate the soil with one petri dish
> full of "Azotbacter" which has been incubated for a duration of "one
> half-life" of "Azotobacter", plant the seeds.
> 
> 4,5,6) Same three treatments as above, but use your absolute favorite
> garden soil.
> 
> A priori observation: gardening soil usually makes plants grow better
> than sterile sand.  But, call me a non-believer.  I think that can be
> tested. So, I'm going to give this a call before the results are in -
> Pot #6 (garden soil with 25-25-25 sweet cow excretions) will win in 4
> out of 5 repeated similar experiments.
> 
> Observations:  Feel free to takes notes and pictures (and don't
> cheat!)
> 
> Carry on.  I will abide by the results of anyone who tries this
> experiment.  If pot #6, is not the clear winner, then I will inquiry
> about more specific details of the experiment, try more discussion
> and analysis of what went on, and perhaps attempt to repeat the
> outstanding, yet unobvious and miraculous results of pot #3.
> 
> I need a break.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> SKB
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard
> Haard<mailto:richrd at nas.com> To:
> rukurt at westnet.com.au<mailto:rukurt at westnet.com.au> Cc:
> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:29 PM Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] John
> Cowan's comments
> 
> 
> We need to find the conditions, nutrient solutions to enhance the 
> soil population of Azotobacter, and then invite them to live in our
>  charcoal.
> 
> Any idea for Azotobacter enrichment culture protocol? These free 
> living nitrogen fixers are always present. Rich H On Apr 22, 2007, at
> 2:55 PM, rukurt at westnet.com.au<mailto:rukurt at westnet.com.au> wrote:
> 
>> Perhaps that is precisely what we need to do. Take some sand,
>> perhaps from decomposed granite. Wash it well to remove all organic
>> material, add some wee beasties to some and some sugar to part of
>> that, making three lots of soil and plant some seeds in them to see
>> how they grow. Any ideas?
> 
> 
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