[Terrapreta] 200 tons per day Dynamotive plant in Missouri

[Sean K. Barry]

Hi Gerald (Gerrit?, whichever you prefer),

Tom is probably absolutely right.  Brian Hans said it, too.  Economic considerations drive Dynamotive on what they do with the "products" of the "fast pyrolysis" reaction that they use.  If generating electricity is more profitable than selling raw Bio-oil, then that is what they will do.  If using the energy in the charcoal for processing the biomass lowers the cost of external energy inputs, then that is what they will do.  If putting 8 micron charcoal dust into the Bio-oil to increase its BTU content and value is more profitable than selling charcoal as fuel or soil amendment, then that is what they will do.  It is not surprising that any business would do whatever it takes to improve revenues.

This is a compelling argument.  I confirms my earlier concern, that making charcoal for use as a soil amendment is not yet economically viable.  Any more profitable use for charcoal (process heat, activated char, filler in bio-oil, fuel, etc) is taking it away as any possible source for Agrichar/biochar/soil-amendment-charcoal.  That is an easy idea to understand, right?

Regards,

SKB


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Gerald Van Koeverden<mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca> 
  To: Tom Miles<mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com> 
  Cc: 'Sean K. Barry'<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> ; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
  Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 9:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] 200 tons per day Dynamotive plant in Missouri


  Tom, I think you are correct.  At the near-by plant, though some of the bio-oil is sold for use in food enhancement, most is used to drive an electrical generator to feed into the main power grid - which buys the power for $.11/kw.   




  On 7-Dec-07, at 6:11 PM, Tom Miles wrote:


    Sean,
     
    The product distribution listed is typical of Dynamotive or any of the other pyrolysis systems. The fast pyrolysis systems tend to get higher yields of useful oils which is their primary product. The market or use is not altogether clear. Ensyn, for example, has built several bio oil plants that are used for making food flavoring, liquid smoke. They have not yet built an energy plant because the value of the oil is currently higher in the food market. They use the energy in the gas and char to heat the pyrolysis process. Both suppliers use the off gas, as mentioned below, to drive the process. The amount of char available seems to depend on the energy needs of downstream processing. The more heat required the more char would be consumed.
     
    Dynamotive’s IAI presentation suggests that in present market conditions the char is worth more as energy than as a carbon offset. So they would use it for energy rather than sell it as char. Having said that they are participating in a 14 ton char trial in Iowa so they haven’t closed off the option.  I think the agronomic , i.e. crop and soil enhancement, value of charcoal is greater in the long term but I can’t prove it.  
     
    You might ask why not just burn the biomass instead of making oil? I think the answer is that they are in the business of selling a bio oil technology.
     
    Tom
     
     
    From: Sean K. Barry [mailto:sean.barry at juno.com<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>] 
    Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:32 PM
    To: 'Gerald Van Koeverden'; Tom Miles
    Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
    Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] 200 tons per day Dynamotive plant in Missouri
     
    Hi Tom,
     
    I know the process can be "tilted" as you describe it.  What is DYNAMOTIVE'S plan?  They claim ...
     
    "Three products are produced: BioOil (60-75% by weight), char (15-20% wt.) and non-condensable gases (10-20% wt.). Yields vary depending on the feedstock composition. BioOil and char are commercial products and non-condensable gases are recycled and supply a major part of the energy required by the process. No waste is produced in the Dynamotive process."
     
    So, they are turning back some of the energy content in those products back into the process.  They also do not mention external inputs of energy either.  I wonder what those are?  There is a product they have, too, called intermediate Bio-oil, which has the char added back into the oil to increase its BTU content.  The energy balances and energy fluxes in pyrolysis are quite complex and to be honest I really do not see yet how char can be made economically yet?
     
    Regards,
     
    SKB
     
     
    ----- Original Message -----
      From: Tom Miles<mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com>
      To: 'Sean K. Barry'<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> ; 'Gerald Van Koeverden'<mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
      Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
      Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 11:48 AM
      Subject: RE: [Terrapreta] 200 tons per day Dynamotive plant in Missouri
       
      Sean,
       
      Another point to remember is that the process can be tilted.  You can "burn out" the char by converting more of it to oil or gas depending on the moisture in the fuel and the temperature of the reactor. In the absence of char markets most processes plan to use the char as fuel to generate heat for drying the fuel or for reheating the media  - sand, rocks, etc. - used to heat and pyrolyze the fuel.
       
      Tom
       
       
      From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org>] On Behalf Of Sean K. Barry
      Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 5:48 PM
      To: Gerald Van Koeverden
      Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
      Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] 200 tons per day Dynamotive plant in Missouri
       
      Hi Gerrit,
       
      Well that's impressive.  I did not think "fast-pyrolysis" was capable of such a high yield in charcoal.  My reading on this has lead me to believe that it produced large gas and liquid fractions, but little or no charcoal.  Apparently that is wrong?
       
      Regards,
       
      SKB
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Gerald Van Koeverden<mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
        To: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
        Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ; Shengar at aol.com<mailto:Shengar at aol.com>
        Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 5:02 PM
        Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] 200 tons per day Dynamotive plant in Missouri
         
        Here at Dynamotive's plant in West Lorne, they get about 18% yield of char.
         
        On 6-Dec-07, at 12:45 PM, Sean K. Barry wrote:



         

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