[Terrapreta] volatile matter and char

[kchisholm at ca.inter.net]

Quoting "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>:

> Hi Kevin,
>
> How does your your last sentence ...
>
> "This latter reference
>
>
>   Analysis of a Hormesis Effect in the Leukemia-Caused Mortality Among
>   Atomic Bomb Survivors
>
>
> confirms the existence of the hormesis effect.",

This is a scientific, Peer reviewed paper. Fellow Scientists would  
never let the "hormesis effect" go unchallanged unless it was real.
>
> confirm or even show the hormesis effect of charcoal borne (in VM)   
> soil toxins in or on soil or any living biota or the hormesis effect  
>  of soil biota in the presence of charcoal toxins?

I had intended to make the list aware of a possible relevant phenomenon.

   How is there any
> connection?

I never said there was, or was not a connection. I only pose the  
possibility that there may be relevance.

  This is a weak inductive argument.  Is there any way
> you can demonstrate this (confirming one confirms the other)?

There definitely is a way to prove or disprove teh relevance of the  
Hormesis Effect.... run tests.
>
> Based on the assumption that hormesis in biomass-to-soil applies, is  
>  there anything you can predict, that is demonstrable?

Test work is required. Someone could perhaps get a PhD out of such work.

   Test for the
> failure of that "new" predicted cause-and-effect and you will   
> support a growing hypothesis, that hormesis has an effect in the use  
>  of charcoal as a soil amendment.  Get more people to see and repeat  
>  your work, publish a report of this under review by peer  
> scientists,  develop new experiments to validate further that  
> hormesis is in  effect, and then it will begin to become an accepted  
> theory (and  categorically falsifiable by a single failed prediction).

Thats the correct general procedure.
>
> Until then, what you suggest it is a story and an inappropriate   
> generalization, which is potentially totally false.

What I am suggesting is a possibility. What you are suggesting is that  
possibility might not prove to be true. I agree that it might not be  
true, but will have to agree that it is not untrue until proven untrue.

Kevin
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Kevin Chisholm<mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
>   To: Greg and April<mailto:gregandapril at earthlink.net>
>   Cc: 'Terrapreta Preta'<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>   Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:50 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] volatile matter and char
>
>
>   Dear Greg
>
>   Very good point!
>
>   See:   
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis>
>   and
>     
> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/tandf/bher/2001/00000007/00000004/art00016<http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/tandf/bher/2001/00000007/00000004/art00016>
>
>   This latter reference
>
>
>     Analysis of a Hormesis Effect in the Leukemia-Caused Mortality Among
>     Atomic Bomb Survivors
>
>
>    confirms the existence of the hormesis effect.
>
>   Best wishes,
>
>   Kevin
>   Greg and April wrote:
>   > Just thinking out loud -
>   >
>   > It occurs to me, that VM like methanol ( wood alcohol is considered a
>   > part of VM is it not? ) while toxic to some forms of life, is used as
>   > food by other forms of life, indeed many plants are able to use it to
>   > take up carbon at elevated temperatures when the stoma are normally
>   > closed to conserve moisture within the plant.
>   >
>   > Further, many types of microbial life find methanol to be a feast of
>   > sorts, and even when high proof methanol is spilled, it's only the
>   > immediate area of the spill that is killed off, but, within a  few
>   > days microbes are moving back in to make use of the new food supply
>   > with fungi soon to follow.
>   >
>   > Could it be, that what we believe to be a toxic VM, is just that when
>   > in concentration, but can actually be microbial food when
>   > diluted down, and all we have to do, is provide the right nutrients
>   > for the microbes to use the VM as food?    Nutrients that might be
>   > found in most any compost pile?
>   >
>   >
>   > Greg H.
>   >
>   >
>   >     ----- Original Message -----
>   >     *From:* Michael Antal   
> <mailto:mantal at hawaii.edu<mailto:mantal at hawaii.edu>>
>   >     *To:* 'Terrapreta Preta'   
> <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>>
>   >     *Cc:* 'Gabor Varhegyi'   
> <mailto:varhegyi at chemres.hu<mailto:varhegyi at chemres.hu>>
>   >     *Sent:* Friday, December 21, 2007 18:01
>   >     *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] volatile matter and char
>   >
>   >     There is no mystery associated with the chemical composition of
>   >     volatile matter (VM).  As discussed in our publications and
>   >     others, VM is composed of carboxylic, carboxylic anhydride,
>   >     lactone, hydroquinone, phenolic, carbonylic, quinonic, ether, and
>   >     pyrone functional groups attached to a carbon backbone.  At
>   >     elevated temperatures (typically above 400 C) these groups undergo
>   >     thermal cleavage and form CO2, CO, H2, H2O and CH4 and (at low
>   >     temperatures) other organic compounds.  As Gerrit states below,
>   >     the VM content of charcoal is largely a product of the pyrolysis
>   >     process itself.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >     If Edward Someus were to take the trouble to read our
>   >     publications, he would realize that his remarks below (concerning
>   >     our work) are nonsense.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >     Merry Christmas to all!
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >     Michael J. Antal, Jr.
>   >
>   >     Coral Industries Distinguished Professor of Renewable Energy  
>  Resources
>   >
>   >     Hawaii Natural Energy Institute
>   >
>   >     POST 109, 1680 East-West Rd.
>   >
>   >     Honolulu, HI 96822
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >     phone: 808/956-7267
>   >
>   >     fax: 808/956-2336
>   >
>   >     _www.hnei.hawaii.edu_
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   >
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