[Terrapreta] FIeld and Nursery Trials

[Sean K. Barry]

Hi Tom,

I was reading a paper done by Dr. Johannes Lehmann from Cornell -> http://www.georgiaitp.org/carbon/PDF%20Files/CSteinerpres.pdf<http://www.georgiaitp.org/carbon/PDF%20Files/CSteinerpres.pdf> 

I got my 100+ tons of charcoal per acre estimate from that paper.  They were discussing charcoal concentrations at 60 g per kg of soil.  In it, they showed that the best results (for yield in nitrogen fixing beans) that they achieved was at that concentration (60 g kg-1).  There is a paragraph at the end of the paper, where they came up with 121.5 tons per hectare (10,000 sq meters = ~2.47 acres).  Jim's number at 50 tons/acre is closer to there number than my 100+ tons/acre (121.5 metric tons / 2.47 acres/ha = 49.2 metric tons/acre, 1 metric ton = ~1.1 metric tons, so ~55 tons/acre).  I mentioned this to Jim when we talked about it.

I read just today, too, at http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/taxonomy/term/6/9<http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/taxonomy/term/6/9>, Terra Preta: Homepage about Anthrohumox in Brazilian Lowland<http://www.gerhardbechtold.com/TP/gbtp.php?vers=2>, Gerhard Bechtold, University of Bayreuth/Munchen, Germany, November 2007, carbon content at 9%!  That is 90+ grams of charcoal per kilogram of soil.

So, I think the charcoal density in the orginal Terra Preta and in tests done by the soil scientists from Cornell and Bayreuth do show very high application rates (50+ tons/acre at least).  If you find this differently, let me know?

Regards,

SKB
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tom Miles<mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com> 
  To: 'Sean K. Barry'<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> ; 'terrapreta'<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ; 'Jim Joyner'<mailto:jimstoytn at yahoo.com> 
  Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 7:52 PM
  Subject: RE: [Terrapreta] FIeld and Nursery Trials


  Sean, Jim,

   

  These concentrations still seem quite high compared with what we've seen in the Cornell/U Beyreuth research in the Amazons and elsewhere. (It's time to go back to the papers or dial up a terra preta expert.)  Given the cost of charcoal in any economy we need to determine what rates are appropriate for different crops and soils.  

   

  Tom

   

   

   

   

  From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Sean K. Barry
  Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 3:33 PM
  To: terrapreta; Jim Joyner
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] FIeld and Nursery Trials

   

  Hi Jim,

   

  No, I think you pretty much summed up what I said.  Cornell's research with nitrogen fixing beans said charcoal application rates at 60g kg-1 (60 g charcoal per kilogram of soil, ~6%) in the top 15 cm of soil.  That worked out to around 100 tons/acre.  They were trying to optimize nitrogen fixing capability along with biomass yield in the bean plants.  I'm not sure that optimizing CEC would even require the same charecooal levels in that soil, let alone any other soils types.

   

  As you said, it was in an Amazon climate, with Oxisol soils (nearly sterile, heavy, acidic, clay type soils).  I did comment, too, that at $200/ton, 100 tons/acre would be an exorbitant cost, if it were paid all in one year.  What the hell. I think $2000 for 10 tons/acre.

  So lower application rates could delay the short term costs.  They may even show some effectiveness.

   

  Regards,

   

  SKB

   

   

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Jim Joyner<mailto:jimstoytn at yahoo.com> 

    To: terrapreta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 

    Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 4:11 PM

    Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] FIeld and Nursery Trials

     

    Thanks Tom.

    Seems strange that Fourth Corner Nursery doesn't know how much charcoal they applied . . . maybe they don't want to tell anyone?

    A discussion of how the appropriate application rate is determined would be welcome.

    I came up with a figure of about 40 to 50 tons per acre trying to optimize the CEC of my own land (making several assumptions), applying it only to the top 6 inches. (Someplace I have an email from Kevin with a figure that was similar or slightly higher). The biggest assumption I made was that charcoal would measure out similar to stable humus carbon in the soil. I've seen this done with soft coal (Personally, I'm not a fan of soft coal). I would also likely need to apply some calcium (lime) but I would not do so until I gave it a full season to resettle it's own biological structure.

    In a sense this already takes into consideration the climate, use and structure of soil because it is based the knowledge of the soil in question, i.e., I know what kind of response I would get, what my soil is capable of and where the returns diminish in terms of CEC. I can't find that anyone seems to care about the particular soil structure or its climate -- which to me, makes all the difference in the world!. If I moved my soil to the Amazon, I would needs much more; in Minnesota, less. But I would only know after looking at actual responses in those climes.

    But Sean, I think, said he thought 100 tons/acre would be better -- applied over many years, presumably to buffer the cash outlay bite. I don't think he said how he arrived at that figure, unless he was using Cornell's numbers in the tropics -- which I doubt is a good yardstick for temperate soils. (Sean, please correct me if I'm wrong.  I didn't mean to put words into your mouth, there's just much of what you said, I don't get when it comes to the soil)

    Jim

    ----- Original Message ----
    From: Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com>

    Jim,


    It’s not always very clear. A discussion of how the appropriate application rate is determined would be welcome. 

     

    The applications appear to be from 5-10 tones/ha or about 2.2-4.4 tons per acre. The highest is probably equal to 3% C in the top 10 cm (4 in) of soil. 

     

    1 mt = 1.102311 short tons; 1 ha=2.471044 acres; 1 mt/ha = 0.446091 t/a.

     

    I used 5-10 t/ha to calculate some carbon sequestration rates:

    http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/carbondioxide<http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/carbondioxide>

     

    The tests in the Oil Mallee charcoal project in Australia used a rate of 6 t/ha (2.68 t/a) in a  100 mm (3.94 in)  wide band, equal to a broadcast rate of 1 t/ha (.45 t/a) for a row spacing of 600 mm (23.6 in ). See  http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/oilmalleeiai07<http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/oilmalleeiai07>

     

    Tom  

       

    From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Jim Joyner
    Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 8:25 AM


    It may have been stated but I can't find anyplace where the amount of charcoal applied on the trial beds is reported. Anyone know?

    Thanks,

    Jim

     

     


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