[Terrapreta] HOW TO FINANCE DEEP AND HIGH DOSE CHAR ADAPTATION

[Edward Someus]

YES, the local soil and climatic conditions to be considered case by case.
This is why we are doing many tests is different countries to test
differently formulated chars in different soil and climatic conditions with
variable from-to dose rate estimations. We concentrate us on the vegetable
industry at this moment, where the top soil layer down to 20 cm is the most
interesting. 
 
DEEP AND HIGH DOSE CHAR ADAPTATION:  I would think that in the first place
the critical question comes, how to finance it ?  +  ?  ?  +  ?  ?  +  ? 
Which financial mechanism might be different in different world regions. 
 
 

Sincerely yours: Edward Someus (environmental engineer)
Terra Humana Clean Tech Ltd. (ISO 9001/ISO 14001)
3R Environmental Technologies Ltd. 
ADDRESS: H-1222 Budapest, Szechenyi 59, Hungary
TEL handy:  +(36-20) 201 7557
TEL / FAX:   +(36-1) 424 0224
TEL SKYPE phone via computer:  Edward Someus
3R TERRACARBON:   http://www.terrenum.net 
3R CLEANCOAL ENERGY: http://www.nvirocleantech.com 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Sean K. Barry
Date: 2007.11.24. 7:44:41
To: Edward Someus;  'terrapreta';  'Jim Joyner';  Tom Miles
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] FIeld and Nursery Trials
 
Hi Edward, Tom, Jim, et al.,
 
I'd say that there probably are differences in optimal levels of charcoal
amendment for different crops and/or different soils.  
The numbers I've seen were 3%, 6%, and 9% (weight of char/weight of soil). 
There are differences to in how deep the amendments are incorporated into
the soil, too; top 10 cm, top 15 cm, top 2-3 meters, etc.  Also, the tests,
the plants, and the soils that Dr. Lehamnn, Dr Steiner, and Gerhart Bechtold
 etc. were doing/using may have changed the rate of charcoal application
differently than what would be required in other agricultural settings.
 
I think what Jim says makes some sense.  Optimizing charcoal application
rates for a soil specific parameter like CEC may prove more useful for
agricultural purposes, than some "one-size-fits-all" methodology.
 
Additionally, if one considers burying charcoal in soil as a "carbon
sequestration methodology", then maybe high application rates would be
beneficial ( a larger carbon bank in fewer acres?).  If there is a specific
charcoal density that makes the soil best for agricultrual production, then
that density could be maintained in the root zone (and maybe slightly below)
 while any larger or smaller charcoal density could be incorporated at
deeper levels.
 
Regards,
 
SKB
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Edward Someus 
To: 'Sean K. Barry' ; 'terrapreta' ; 'Jim Joyner' ; Tom Miles 
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] FIeld and Nursery Trials


YES,  the concentration dose still seem quite high
 
We use two dose formulated charcoal test scenarios in our EU tests
programme: 
LOW: 400 kg - 1250 kg/ha low dose (20 cm top soil) --- this is the prime
application. 

HIGH: 10-25 tons / ha
 
 

Sincerely yours: Edward Someus (environmental engineer)
Terra Humana Clean Tech Ltd. (ISO 9001/ISO 14001)
3R Environmental Technologies Ltd. 
ADDRESS: H-1222 Budapest, Szechenyi 59, Hungary
TEL handy:  +(36-20) 201 7557
TEL / FAX:   +(36-1) 424 0224
TEL SKYPE phone via computer:  Edward Someus
3R TERRACARBON:   http://www.terrenum.net 
3R CLEANCOAL ENERGY: http://www.nvirocleantech.com 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Tom Miles
Date: 2007.11.24. 2:52:31
To: 'Sean K. Barry';  'terrapreta';  'Jim Joyner'
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] FIeld and Nursery Trials
 
Sean, Jim,
 
These concentrations still seem quite high compared with what we’ve seen in
the Cornell/U Beyreuth research in the Amazons and elsewhere. (It’s time to
go back to the papers or dial up a terra preta expert.)  Given the cost of
charcoal in any economy we need to determine what rates are appropriate for
different crops and soils.  
 
Tom
 
 
 
 
From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
[mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Sean K. Barry
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 3:33 PM
To: terrapreta; Jim Joyner
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] FIeld and Nursery Trials
 
Hi Jim,
 
No, I think you pretty much summed up what I said.  Cornell's research with
nitrogen fixing beans said charcoal application rates at 60g kg-1 (60 g
charcoal per kilogram of soil, ~6%) in the top 15 cm of soil.  That worked
out to around 100 tons/acre.  They were trying to optimize nitrogen fixing
capability along with biomass yield in the bean plants.  I'm not sure that
optimizing CEC would even require the same charecooal levels in that soil,
let alone any other soils types.
 
As you said, it was in an Amazon climate, with Oxisol soils (nearly sterile,
heavy, acidic, clay type soils).  I did comment, too, that at $200/ton, 100
tons/acre would be an exorbitant cost, if it were paid all in one year. 
What the hell. I think $2000 for 10 tons/acre.
So lower application rates could delay the short term costs.  They may even
show some effectiveness.
 
Regards,
 
SKB
 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jim Joyner 
To: terrapreta 
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] FIeld and Nursery Trials
 
Thanks Tom.

Seems strange that Fourth Corner Nursery doesn't know how much charcoal they
applied . . . maybe they don't want to tell anyone?

A discussion of how the appropriate application rate is determined would be
welcome.

I came up with a figure of about 40 to 50 tons per acre trying to optimize
the CEC of my own land (making several assumptions), applying it only to the
top 6 inches. (Someplace I have an email from Kevin with a figure that was
similar or slightly higher). The biggest assumption I made was that charcoal
would measure out similar to stable humus carbon in the soil. I've seen this
done with soft coal (Personally, I'm not a fan of soft coal). I would also
likely need to apply some calcium (lime) but I would not do so until I gave
it a full season to resettle it's own biological structure.

In a sense this already takes into consideration the climate, use and
structure of soil because it is based the knowledge of the soil in question,
i.e., I know what kind of response I would get, what my soil is capable of
and where the returns diminish in terms of CEC. I can't find that anyone
seems to care about the particular soil structure or its climate -- which to
me, makes all the difference in the world!. If I moved my soil to the Amazon
 I would needs much more; in Minnesota, less. But I would only know after
looking at actual responses in those climes.

But Sean, I think, said he thought 100 tons/acre would be better -- applied
over many years, presumably to buffer the cash outlay bite. I don't think he
said how he arrived at that figure, unless he was using Cornell's numbers in
the tropics -- which I doubt is a good yardstick for temperate soils. (Sean,
please correct me if I'm wrong.  I didn't mean to put words into your mouth,
there's just much of what you said, I don't get when it comes to the soil)

Jim
----- Original Message ----
From: Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com>
Jim,

Itʼs not always very clear. A discussion of how the appropriate application
rate is determined would be welcome. 
 
The applications appear to be from 5-10 tones/ha or about 2.2-4.4 tons per
acre. The highest is probably equal to 3% C in the top 10 cm (4 in) of soil.

 
1 mt = 1.102311 short tons; 1 ha=2.471044 acres; 1 mt/ha = 0.446091 t/a.
 
I used 5-10 t/ha to calculate some carbon sequestration rates:
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/carbondioxide
 
The tests in the Oil Mallee charcoal project in Australia used a rate of 6
t/ha (2.68 t/a) in a  100 mm (3.94 in)  wide band, equal to a broadcast rate
of 1 t/ha (.45 t/a) for a row spacing of 600 mm (23.6 in ). See 
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/oilmalleeiai07
 
Tom  
   
From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
[mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Jim Joyner
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 8:25 AM

It may have been stated but I can't find anyplace where the amount of
charcoal applied on the trial beds is reported. Anyone know?

Thanks,

Jim
 
 



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