[Terrapreta] CO2 in the Oceans

[Kevin Chisholm]

Dear William

On 20 June, Marc made the following observation:

"Ice core data clearly shows that mean temperature determines CO2 
concentration, and not the reverse. There's a lag of about 800 years 
between a temperature change and a corresponding change in CO2 
concentration. Those two curves - CO2 and temperature - are the ones 
used by Gore in An Inconvenient Truth...only he shifts them in time 
so that they appear to coincide. Not the only lie in that movie, but 
certainly the crucial one.

Nobody has disputed the truth of his statement. Nobody has shown where it is wrong.

Based on this "adjustment of fact", Gore is then able to come to the conclusion that Global Warming is caused by increased CO2 in the atmosphere. If his conclusions are based on faulty data, then his conclusions are faulty. Garbage in, garbage out.

If we assume that 24,900 miles is the circumference of the earth through the poles, and if the Shadow and Stick method gives a reading of 24,900 miles, then it is a valid method for measuring the circumference. If the "tea leaves, duct tape and goose" method yields results which are processed and adjusted by someone knowing how to use that measurement system, and if this method also yields 24,900 miles, then these two methods are consistent. 

The reality is that the true circumference of the Earth is 24 854.847 689 miles through the poles. So, if the "Stick and Shadow" method gives the wrong results, when that the "tea leaves, duct tape, and goose" method gives the same wrong results, then it is condemned to wrongness also.

In very brief and blunt summary, if Gore jiggled and distorted scientific data in order to get the conclusions he wanted, and if Hansen came to the same conclusion using different methods, both Gore and Hansen are wrong. Period.

You state: "Non-Sequiter.    Independent processes leading to common results does  
not imply a false output just because you disagree."

You are off track here. My opinion of Gore or Hansen, or my opinion on Global Warming, does not enter the matter at all. My conclusions are based simply on the observation of what will result when someone jiggles and distorts data to get the conclusion they wants.

It will be wonderful when Tom sets up the other List, so that all discussion on Climate Change can take place there, and allow this list to concentrate on matters relating to carbon in the soil.

Best wishes,

Kevin

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: William Carr 
  To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 12:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] CO2 in the Oceans



  On Jun 22, 2008, at 1:00 PM, terrapreta-request at bioenergylists.org  
  wrote:

  > Hansen may indeed be a competent and sincere and well meaning  
  > Scientist. The fact remains that if it was necessary for Gore to  
  > mess with real data in order to arrive at the conclusion he wants,  
  > if Hansen arrived at the same conclusion using different data, then  
  > they are both wrong.



  Non-Sequiter.    Independent processes leading to common results does  
  not imply a false output just because you disagree.

  If I use the ancient Shadow-stick method to measure the circumference  
  of the Earth and compute it at 24,900 miles, and my neighbor uses a  
  flawed method involving tea leaves, duct tape, and a goose, then  
  fudges the result and comes up with 24,900 miles, then we are NOT both  
  wrong.




  Ah-Hem.


  I have a radical suggestion.   This idea may take some by surprise,  
  and may even seem a bit shocking.


  How's about we respect the expertise of those who have studied and  
  made science their profession ?


  In other words, if you DO have a degree in Geophysics, Statistics,  
  Climatology, or whatever, I would be fascinated to hear your views on  
  this subject.


  If, on the other hand, you are merely repeating, ad nauseam, your  
  political party's talking points, and you are in fact, not a scientist  
  ---  perhaps you don't have the credibility required to make a  
  positive contribution to this discussion.



  Thank you for your attention.   We now return to our regularly  
  scheduled discussion of Terra Preta, already in progress....

















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